6 ms·

Genuinely curious about how Tel Aviv, Israel, is considered safer than Toronto, Canada (4.13 vs 3.93). Yes, a city that is under threat from terrorist rocket b

by jbob2000 9y ago

Genuinely curious about how Tel Aviv, Israel, is considered safer than Toronto, Canada (4.13 vs 3.93). Yes, a city that is under threat from terrorist rocket barrages and who's national army is currently occupying a foreign state is safer than a city that barely sees homicides.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Nokinside 9y ago
Terrorism is fear word. If you look at the raw numbers, Terrorism is just minor nuisance, even rocket barrages.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- f00_ 9y ago
  Lets use rocket attacks instead of terrorism. You could consider the actions of the US and Israel to be terroris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... Tel Aviv seems great honestly. Really my only complaint against Israel is the expansion of settlements and the alliance with South Africa during apartheid.
- Pilfer 9y ago
  >Terrorism is just minor nuisance [sic] If you look at the raw numbers, only 3 people died in the boston bombings. But if you look at the economic costs, - The entire boston transit system was shut down for security reasons, disrupting the entire city - Large numbers of people did not go to work the next day, costing hundreds of millions in lost productivity - An enormous manhunt ensued, at the cost of over 300 million - Entire parts of the city were shut down, preventing them from going to work - 10s of millions in costs to the victims - Tens of thousands of hours of additional work for public employees - Billions in lost productivity nationwide as people focused on the media saga All this cost the terrorists only $200 in explosives. In your words, billions of dollars in economic damage "is just minor nuisance".
  - Barrin92 9y ago
    In Israel the rocket attacks are a large motivation for collaboration between the military / tech sector and there's plenty of startups that actually focus on providing services around this, there's an app for example that warns people when some rocket attack is supposed to happen. What you're identifying as cost here is actually a service that a business can provide. The close military connections (also supported by the conscription) are actually an asset for the country in terms of technological progress. Think of it like a messy version of the cold war.
    - jjeaff 9y ago
      That kind of brings us back to the original point. If there is enough demand that someone has created a rocket attack warning app, I don't consider it a safe city in any sense of the word.
      - fshaun 9y ago
        Demand is proportional to perceived threat, not actual threat. This "ROI" is one of the reasons terrorism continues. A city can be quite safe even if its residents are not rational.
  - Nokinside 9y ago
    >All this cost the terrorists only $200 in explosives. In your words, billions of dollars in economic damage "is just minor nuisance". How badly did startup scene in Boston suffer? Economic damage was the result of was fear and overreaction. Tel Aviv would not scare so easily. America is probably the most jumpy country to live on and vulnerable to terrorism as a result. London, Paris and other big cities can suck in the damage with smaller cost.
  - dantillberg 9y ago
    You can't blame the terrorists for all that. They didn't shut the city down -- government leaders did. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself, and we do ourselves incredible damage by it.
programLyrique 9y ago
Safety: "Each city’s Safety score reflects the reported perception of safety by residents and public data provided by police departments of each city regarding crime rates." Maybe the residents of Tel Aviv do not perceive their city as unsafe. I guess that people become accustomed to terrorism happening rather regularly. A city with less homicides but more reported ones in the media is maybe perceived less safe by the residents?
- CamelCaseName 9y ago
  Perhaps we perceive our safety relative to the safety of surrounding areas? Compare: "Tel Aviv is dangerous, the threat of war is everpresent and I often hear mortar fire, but the border to Gaza just 45 minutes away is substantially more dangerous" vs. "Toronto is dangerous, there's Jane and Finch and many homeless people, the suburbs of Newmarket just 45 minutes away are substantially safer"
  - sova 9y ago
    Perception of safety intimately ties to Whether or not you're in Survival Mode, but I think overall you are correct. It's interesting, since no one locale would have its own "inherent safety" it would just be known by proxy, which is interdependence at its finest. Laterally, a whole picture and paradigm are formed from insubstantial on-their-own blocks. It is interesting, too, that safety is typically a feeling you get when there's not much competition for survival. In an age and time of such abundance, it really baffles me how it is taking so long (in some regards) but, as the great Matthew Wilder say, ain't nothin' gonna break my stride. Ain't nothin' gonna slow me down. Just some thoughts.
ido 9y ago
If you look up how many people died in Tel Aviv from terrorism (any kind) in the last 20 years, you will see it is a tiny fraction of all non-natural deaths - far from offsetting the relatively low crime rate.
simonebrunozzi 9y ago
More people die in Toronto in swimming pool accidents, than people in Tel Aviv due to terrorist attacks. Source: one easy google search away, or start with this: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs347/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs347/en/ Let's not confuse perceived threats from real ones, backed by data.
- evgen 9y ago
  How many people die in swimming pool accidents in Tel Aviv? The population-adjusted murder and rape rate seems to be higher in Israel (getting like vs like stats for same years at a city level is a bit harder than doing it nationally.) While it is good to deal with real vs perceived threats, the survey in question explicitly ranked perceived safety so if that is part of the calculation then I think it is fair to discuss the elephant in the room.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Nokinside 9y ago

Terrorism is fear word. If you look at the raw numbers, Terrorism is just minor nuisance, even rocket barrages.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
f00_ 9y ago
Lets use rocket attacks instead of terrorism. You could consider the actions of the US and Israel to be terroris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... Tel Aviv seems great honestly. Really my only complaint against Israel is the expansion of settlements and the alliance with South Africa during apartheid.
Pilfer 9y ago
>Terrorism is just minor nuisance [sic] If you look at the raw numbers, only 3 people died in the boston bombings. But if you look at the economic costs, - The entire boston transit system was shut down for security reasons, disrupting the entire city - Large numbers of people did not go to work the next day, costing hundreds of millions in lost productivity - An enormous manhunt ensued, at the cost of over 300 million - Entire parts of the city were shut down, preventing them from going to work - 10s of millions in costs to the victims - Tens of thousands of hours of additional work for public employees - Billions in lost productivity nationwide as people focused on the media saga All this cost the terrorists only $200 in explosives. In your words, billions of dollars in economic damage "is just minor nuisance".
- Barrin92 9y ago
  In Israel the rocket attacks are a large motivation for collaboration between the military / tech sector and there's plenty of startups that actually focus on providing services around this, there's an app for example that warns people when some rocket attack is supposed to happen. What you're identifying as cost here is actually a service that a business can provide. The close military connections (also supported by the conscription) are actually an asset for the country in terms of technological progress. Think of it like a messy version of the cold war.
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    That kind of brings us back to the original point. If there is enough demand that someone has created a rocket attack warning app, I don't consider it a safe city in any sense of the word.
    - fshaun 9y ago
      Demand is proportional to perceived threat, not actual threat. This "ROI" is one of the reasons terrorism continues. A city can be quite safe even if its residents are not rational.
- Nokinside 9y ago
  >All this cost the terrorists only $200 in explosives. In your words, billions of dollars in economic damage "is just minor nuisance". How badly did startup scene in Boston suffer? Economic damage was the result of was fear and overreaction. Tel Aviv would not scare so easily. America is probably the most jumpy country to live on and vulnerable to terrorism as a result. London, Paris and other big cities can suck in the damage with smaller cost.
- dantillberg 9y ago
  You can't blame the terrorists for all that. They didn't shut the city down -- government leaders did. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself, and we do ourselves incredible damage by it.

programLyrique 9y ago

Safety: "Each city’s Safety score reflects the reported perception of safety by residents and public data provided by police departments of each city regarding crime rates." Maybe the residents of Tel Aviv do not perceive their city as unsafe. I guess that people become accustomed to terrorism happening rather regularly. A city with less homicides but more reported ones in the media is maybe perceived less safe by the residents?

CamelCaseName 9y ago
Perhaps we perceive our safety relative to the safety of surrounding areas? Compare: "Tel Aviv is dangerous, the threat of war is everpresent and I often hear mortar fire, but the border to Gaza just 45 minutes away is substantially more dangerous" vs. "Toronto is dangerous, there's Jane and Finch and many homeless people, the suburbs of Newmarket just 45 minutes away are substantially safer"
- sova 9y ago
  Perception of safety intimately ties to Whether or not you're in Survival Mode, but I think overall you are correct. It's interesting, since no one locale would have its own "inherent safety" it would just be known by proxy, which is interdependence at its finest. Laterally, a whole picture and paradigm are formed from insubstantial on-their-own blocks. It is interesting, too, that safety is typically a feeling you get when there's not much competition for survival. In an age and time of such abundance, it really baffles me how it is taking so long (in some regards) but, as the great Matthew Wilder say, ain't nothin' gonna break my stride. Ain't nothin' gonna slow me down. Just some thoughts.

ido 9y ago

If you look up how many people died in Tel Aviv from terrorism (any kind) in the last 20 years, you will see it is a tiny fraction of all non-natural deaths - far from offsetting the relatively low crime rate.

simonebrunozzi 9y ago

More people die in Toronto in swimming pool accidents, than people in Tel Aviv due to terrorist attacks. Source: one easy google search away, or start with this: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs347/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs347/en/ Let's not confuse perceived threats from real ones, backed by data.

evgen 9y ago
How many people die in swimming pool accidents in Tel Aviv? The population-adjusted murder and rape rate seems to be higher in Israel (getting like vs like stats for same years at a city level is a bit harder than doing it nationally.) While it is good to deal with real vs perceived threats, the survey in question explicitly ranked perceived safety so if that is part of the calculation then I think it is fair to discuss the elephant in the room.