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So does that mean that people who play games that have maps and that keep the maps in their heads develop grey matter, but people who just blindly run around th

So does that mean that people who play games that have maps and that keep the maps in their heads develop grey matter, but people who just blindly run around the map and don't learn where things are will lose grey matter? What games DON'T require spatial memory? I'm having a hard time thinking of one.

xeromal 9y ago
Plants vs zombies
- icebraining 9y ago
  The study focused on "first-person shooting games". I don't think that counts :)
  - swsieber 9y ago
    There is in fact a plants vs zombies fps for the xbox (plants vs zombies garden warfare). I've only played the second one in that sub-series, but it seems to have non-linear maps.
tedajax 9y ago
A lot of modern games that offer convenience features like GPS navigation in GTA or the quest markers in Skyrim. I prefer playing GTA with the GPS turned off because it forces me to actually learn the lay of the land.
- izzydata 9y ago
  Regardless of fancy navigation mechanics I don't think I've ever played a 3D environment game where after some time I didn't memorize the map to some degree. I assume this is the case for most people that play games. I'm more concerned for people that drive around using a GPS in an actual car and somehow never learn the city layout.
  - graphitezepp 9y ago
    . . . I may or may not in fact have considerably more of the WoW geography memorized than the layout of the city I live in.
    - RandomInteger4 9y ago
      Same. Sad thing is, as many of these virtual spaces that I have memorized, I've never utilized them for directed memorization efforts for other information using the "Method of the Loci" or "Mind Palace" techniques.
- mch82 9y ago
  Trying to do this on my Zelda: Breath of the Wild master mode replay. Turned on the "Pro" HUD, which deactivates the map and requires more geography and landmark based navigation... surprisingly fun.
  - izzydata 9y ago
    That reminds me of the game Firewatch where they gave you a compass and a paper-like map and you had to use landmarks that you recognized on the map and in the environment to get around. I'd like to see more large scale adventure games like this.
  - setr 9y ago
    My experience with this kind of thing (like turning off quest markers in oblivion/skyrim) is that the game has been designed with quest markers in mind, and by turning them off the navigation systems stop making much sense. ie the map lacks "natural" markers, and because quest markers exist large view distance isnt very nexessary (and thus non-optimized) so the only larger objects to use can't be seen from a far distance, and the map is just generally designed without interconnectivity or even proper consistency, because the connections are through the markers. Games depending on such GPS systems tend to be significantly hampered by its removal (which makes sense), and thus such basic removal is rarely a sufficient fix. The only reason I'd imagine BotW might work fine is that Nintendo has made open(ish) world games before, and as far as I can remember, have never made much use of such systems. More likely than not, the game was designed without markers, and markers added after the fact; which is clearly untrue of most other modern open-world games
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  Sadly it's much harder to play without mapping "features" in modern games. In Morrowind quests included detailed (or sometimes intentionally not) directions in the journal text because that was the only way for you to find the objective. In Skyrim the journal entries are far less detailed because the game designers expect you to just follow the magic floating icon.
jedahan 9y ago
I lot of single player campaign FPSs (with or without arena sections) are railroady, not requiring map knowledge.
celticninja 9y ago
Also, isn't running around blindly how you learn a map? I know that's how I 'trained' myself on CoD4 until I knew the maps inside out. So was I killing grey matter before creating it?
- KirinDave 9y ago
  Learning a map and using predictive spatial strategies seem to be distinguished in the study. It's been a long time since I touched the pro circuit of any game, but in Q3 the best players were the ones who could predict where you were in addition to where they needed to go. Pretty different skill, and it took a ton of very dedicated practice.
- nodja 9y ago
  Didn't read TFA but I assume that points to mostly single player experiences or procedurally generated content. I.e. In the COD4 campaign you don't need to know the map, you can just blindly run through the level killing what's in front of you until you hit a progress trigger.
  - nerpderp83 9y ago
    Isn't that how most people run their lives?
AnotXOR 9y ago
Wondering this as well. Most games do use spacial memory although some shooters are pretty mindless and navigating requires very little thought or effort (think Diablo 3's more linear maps where it's see enemy, shoot, move forward, see enemy, shoot, move forward, etc). It seems to me like games like Portal / Talos Principle / Amnesia would rely on spacial memory more than most games out there. Can anyone confirm or deny if this hypothesis is correct?
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  Playing counter strike professionally requires spatial memory. Even regular competitive play does this. So does Titanfall.
  - drngdds 9y ago
    Yeah. I would expect all competitive gaming to have a much heavier mental load than lower-level gaming.
KirinDave 9y ago
I think folks overestimate the quality of many gamers. Especially if players don't take time to gain a degree of mastery with the game and move from title to title.
FRex 9y ago
Thief 1, 2 and their fan missions require a lot more spatial memory and awareness than modern titles. Similarly with System Shock 1 and 2.
hackinthebochs 9y ago
I remember reading a study about different navigation strategies. In one strategy you developed a mental map of the area and you mentally navigated that map as a means to navigate the real world. Another strategy was the landmark strategy where you would learn procedural directions between landmarks and so navigation relied much less on mental maps and much more on procedural memory. I suspect these different strategies are at play in the responses noted in the study.
d23 9y ago
I played a lot of video games growing up, particularly first person shooters. I feel like I just had an epiphany. I am incredibly terrible with direction sense in real life. I wonder if video games and relying on map overlays had something to do with it.

xeromal 9y ago

Plants vs zombies

icebraining 9y ago
The study focused on "first-person shooting games". I don't think that counts :)
- swsieber 9y ago
  There is in fact a plants vs zombies fps for the xbox (plants vs zombies garden warfare). I've only played the second one in that sub-series, but it seems to have non-linear maps.

tedajax 9y ago

A lot of modern games that offer convenience features like GPS navigation in GTA or the quest markers in Skyrim. I prefer playing GTA with the GPS turned off because it forces me to actually learn the lay of the land.

izzydata 9y ago
Regardless of fancy navigation mechanics I don't think I've ever played a 3D environment game where after some time I didn't memorize the map to some degree. I assume this is the case for most people that play games. I'm more concerned for people that drive around using a GPS in an actual car and somehow never learn the city layout.
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  . . . I may or may not in fact have considerably more of the WoW geography memorized than the layout of the city I live in.
  - RandomInteger4 9y ago
    Same. Sad thing is, as many of these virtual spaces that I have memorized, I've never utilized them for directed memorization efforts for other information using the "Method of the Loci" or "Mind Palace" techniques.
mch82 9y ago
Trying to do this on my Zelda: Breath of the Wild master mode replay. Turned on the "Pro" HUD, which deactivates the map and requires more geography and landmark based navigation... surprisingly fun.
- izzydata 9y ago
  That reminds me of the game Firewatch where they gave you a compass and a paper-like map and you had to use landmarks that you recognized on the map and in the environment to get around. I'd like to see more large scale adventure games like this.
- setr 9y ago
  My experience with this kind of thing (like turning off quest markers in oblivion/skyrim) is that the game has been designed with quest markers in mind, and by turning them off the navigation systems stop making much sense. ie the map lacks "natural" markers, and because quest markers exist large view distance isnt very nexessary (and thus non-optimized) so the only larger objects to use can't be seen from a far distance, and the map is just generally designed without interconnectivity or even proper consistency, because the connections are through the markers. Games depending on such GPS systems tend to be significantly hampered by its removal (which makes sense), and thus such basic removal is rarely a sufficient fix. The only reason I'd imagine BotW might work fine is that Nintendo has made open(ish) world games before, and as far as I can remember, have never made much use of such systems. More likely than not, the game was designed without markers, and markers added after the fact; which is clearly untrue of most other modern open-world games
0xffff2 9y ago
Sadly it's much harder to play without mapping "features" in modern games. In Morrowind quests included detailed (or sometimes intentionally not) directions in the journal text because that was the only way for you to find the objective. In Skyrim the journal entries are far less detailed because the game designers expect you to just follow the magic floating icon.

jedahan 9y ago

I lot of single player campaign FPSs (with or without arena sections) are railroady, not requiring map knowledge.

celticninja 9y ago

Also, isn't running around blindly how you learn a map? I know that's how I 'trained' myself on CoD4 until I knew the maps inside out. So was I killing grey matter before creating it?

KirinDave 9y ago
Learning a map and using predictive spatial strategies seem to be distinguished in the study. It's been a long time since I touched the pro circuit of any game, but in Q3 the best players were the ones who could predict where you were in addition to where they needed to go. Pretty different skill, and it took a ton of very dedicated practice.
nodja 9y ago
Didn't read TFA but I assume that points to mostly single player experiences or procedurally generated content. I.e. In the COD4 campaign you don't need to know the map, you can just blindly run through the level killing what's in front of you until you hit a progress trigger.
- nerpderp83 9y ago
  Isn't that how most people run their lives?

AnotXOR 9y ago

Wondering this as well. Most games do use spacial memory although some shooters are pretty mindless and navigating requires very little thought or effort (think Diablo 3's more linear maps where it's see enemy, shoot, move forward, see enemy, shoot, move forward, etc). It seems to me like games like Portal / Talos Principle / Amnesia would rely on spacial memory more than most games out there. Can anyone confirm or deny if this hypothesis is correct?

zitterbewegung 9y ago
Playing counter strike professionally requires spatial memory. Even regular competitive play does this. So does Titanfall.
- drngdds 9y ago
  Yeah. I would expect all competitive gaming to have a much heavier mental load than lower-level gaming.

KirinDave 9y ago

I think folks overestimate the quality of many gamers. Especially if players don't take time to gain a degree of mastery with the game and move from title to title.

FRex 9y ago

Thief 1, 2 and their fan missions require a lot more spatial memory and awareness than modern titles. Similarly with System Shock 1 and 2.

hackinthebochs 9y ago

I remember reading a study about different navigation strategies. In one strategy you developed a mental map of the area and you mentally navigated that map as a means to navigate the real world. Another strategy was the landmark strategy where you would learn procedural directions between landmarks and so navigation relied much less on mental maps and much more on procedural memory. I suspect these different strategies are at play in the responses noted in the study.

d23 9y ago

I played a lot of video games growing up, particularly first person shooters. I feel like I just had an epiphany. I am incredibly terrible with direction sense in real life. I wonder if video games and relying on map overlays had something to do with it.