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Some people may have reacted that way. I think you're very intentionally trying mischaracterize people rolling their eyes the same way they always do as some so

by and0 9y ago

Some people may have reacted that way. I think you're very intentionally trying mischaracterize people rolling their eyes the same way they always do as some sort of ignorant knee-jerk reaction. I read the memo entirely. It was half-baked, ideologically, but also creepy. I've heard what it had to say a million times before and it's still stupid.

blub 9y ago
You're basically doing it yourself. Trying to dismiss it with adjectives as "half-baked" or "stupid". The point is, it's neither and I think it deserves a proper dismissal instead of ad-hominems and insults. Surely there is someone that can perform a point by point analysis and disprove the memo? I have not seen one comment doing that. Not one. So no, you don't get to say it's stupid and call it a day. Prove it.
- jtuente 9y ago
  I like this comment, though it seems a bit lacking in completeness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14969178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14969178
tothepixel 9y ago
TIL science is creepy
jamesrcole 9y ago
> I think you're very intentionally trying mischaracterize people That's a pretty strong accusation. What is your evidence for that claim? Show me what I wrote that attempts to do that.
- and0 9y ago
  W.. what? Literally your post. I'd have to quote the whole thing. "many people's first instinct". It wasn't many people's first instinct. Again, I read the article, many others read the article and wrote detailed responses. It's not my job to point these out. Someone making a stupid argument does not obligate anyone to engage or correct them. A massive popular backlash against a shitty idea isn't "trying to shut it down". If I submitted an internal memo advocating pedophilia or something everyone would rightfully dismiss me. No one would be obligated to engage with my dumb ass, and you're all acting like that would be some kind of tragedy or moral failing on the part of everyone around me, rather than me for writing a stupid memo in the first place. You should just say "I think women are inferior" rather than trying to dictate how people approach an incident adjacent to your agenda, just like white nationalists should just come out rather than being coy and hiding behind "free speech" issues.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    > A massive popular backlash against a shitty idea isn't "trying to shut it down". If the backlash is devoid of logic and facts, consisting mainly of character attacks and shaming....ya, that's "shutting it down". And if that's not enough, how about being fired from your job? It's amazing how differently people perceive the very same facts.
    - and0 9y ago
      The backlash is not devoid of logic and facts. Again, a shitty argument does not merit a thesis on it's shittyness from everyone who dismisses it, and there are plenty of in-depth critiques that you would've sought out if your agenda was to actually look into it and better yourself. Also, Google firing him did not shut the argument down. He can happily draft more memos or expand on it. Google Docs is free.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        > there are plenty of in-depth critiques I'd be interested to read a few if you could provide some links. This assumes they exist of course, from the reading I've done on the topic I haven't seen any substantial rebuttal linked anywhere, but I've heard more than one person complain that the only rebuttal they've seen is "sexist!". I have no particular horse in the race so if you do have content to back up your assertion I'd love to read it.
        and0 9y ago
        https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143285-memo-to-all-tech-bros-sexism-not-biology-holds-women-back/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143285-memo-to-all-tec... Is probably the best response I can find at the moment. A few days back my Twitter was full of medium posts responding to specific points, but Twitter is not great about finding these things. I agree with the linked article 100%, which states that there is plenty of scientific evidence that states the contrary, and there is plenty of science done about cultural differences. A lot of what is so frustrating is that so much of this is just common sense, especially to identify that there are a huge number of cultural factors acting like a feedback to make people behave a certain way to meet expectations. I'd refute most religions the same way. It's very clear to me that, for example, the Bible was written by humans vs something divine, as the odds of a God thinking and behaving (being petty, spiteful, or even altruistic) exactly like the humans that read it do seems pretty slim and frankly unimaginative. There's a "chicken or the egg" question that needs to come with every assessment of behaviors of groups vs societal expectations and pressures on those groups. People in power, like yourself presumably (despite your insistence of having "no particular horse in the race) will always pretend that things are the way they are because of divine or otherwise pre-determined reasons. It's silly that people who consider themselves so rational are unable to comprehend how obvious this is. Also lol @ programs for underrepresented groups “increase race and gender tensions”. Get fucked, dude. edit: came across one of the ones I read before from a recently ex-Google employee: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... it's super good and worth a read

by and0 9y ago

blub 9y ago

You're basically doing it yourself. Trying to dismiss it with adjectives as "half-baked" or "stupid". The point is, it's neither and I think it deserves a proper dismissal instead of ad-hominems and insults. Surely there is someone that can perform a point by point analysis and disprove the memo? I have not seen one comment doing that. Not one. So no, you don't get to say it's stupid and call it a day. Prove it.

jtuente 9y ago
I like this comment, though it seems a bit lacking in completeness - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14969178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14969178

tothepixel 9y ago

TIL science is creepy

jamesrcole 9y ago

> I think you're very intentionally trying mischaracterize people That's a pretty strong accusation. What is your evidence for that claim? Show me what I wrote that attempts to do that.

and0 9y ago
W.. what? Literally your post. I'd have to quote the whole thing. "many people's first instinct". It wasn't many people's first instinct. Again, I read the article, many others read the article and wrote detailed responses. It's not my job to point these out. Someone making a stupid argument does not obligate anyone to engage or correct them. A massive popular backlash against a shitty idea isn't "trying to shut it down". If I submitted an internal memo advocating pedophilia or something everyone would rightfully dismiss me. No one would be obligated to engage with my dumb ass, and you're all acting like that would be some kind of tragedy or moral failing on the part of everyone around me, rather than me for writing a stupid memo in the first place. You should just say "I think women are inferior" rather than trying to dictate how people approach an incident adjacent to your agenda, just like white nationalists should just come out rather than being coy and hiding behind "free speech" issues.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > A massive popular backlash against a shitty idea isn't "trying to shut it down". If the backlash is devoid of logic and facts, consisting mainly of character attacks and shaming....ya, that's "shutting it down". And if that's not enough, how about being fired from your job? It's amazing how differently people perceive the very same facts.
  - and0 9y ago
    The backlash is not devoid of logic and facts. Again, a shitty argument does not merit a thesis on it's shittyness from everyone who dismisses it, and there are plenty of in-depth critiques that you would've sought out if your agenda was to actually look into it and better yourself. Also, Google firing him did not shut the argument down. He can happily draft more memos or expand on it. Google Docs is free.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      > there are plenty of in-depth critiques I'd be interested to read a few if you could provide some links. This assumes they exist of course, from the reading I've done on the topic I haven't seen any substantial rebuttal linked anywhere, but I've heard more than one person complain that the only rebuttal they've seen is "sexist!". I have no particular horse in the race so if you do have content to back up your assertion I'd love to read it.
      - and0 9y ago
        https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143285-memo-to-all-tech-bros-sexism-not-biology-holds-women-back/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143285-memo-to-all-tec... Is probably the best response I can find at the moment. A few days back my Twitter was full of medium posts responding to specific points, but Twitter is not great about finding these things. I agree with the linked article 100%, which states that there is plenty of scientific evidence that states the contrary, and there is plenty of science done about cultural differences. A lot of what is so frustrating is that so much of this is just common sense, especially to identify that there are a huge number of cultural factors acting like a feedback to make people behave a certain way to meet expectations. I'd refute most religions the same way. It's very clear to me that, for example, the Bible was written by humans vs something divine, as the odds of a God thinking and behaving (being petty, spiteful, or even altruistic) exactly like the humans that read it do seems pretty slim and frankly unimaginative. There's a "chicken or the egg" question that needs to come with every assessment of behaviors of groups vs societal expectations and pressures on those groups. People in power, like yourself presumably (despite your insistence of having "no particular horse in the race) will always pretend that things are the way they are because of divine or otherwise pre-determined reasons. It's silly that people who consider themselves so rational are unable to comprehend how obvious this is. Also lol @ programs for underrepresented groups “increase race and gender tensions”. Get fucked, dude. edit: came across one of the ones I read before from a recently ex-Google employee: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788 https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... it's super good and worth a read