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Now I'm imagining our economy like some cruel volcano god, demanding blood in exchange for temporary safety. "People's lives are getting worse, look how much m

Now I'm imagining our economy like some cruel volcano god, demanding blood in exchange for temporary safety. "People's lives are getting worse, look how much money that's making us!" It's as if people exist only to make money, actually making people's lives better be damned. I doubt people will tolerate such a vampiric system for much longer, especially if it doesn't feel the need to conceal it's fangs anymore, and what comes afterward keeps me up at night.

briantakita 9y ago
> Now I'm imagining our economy like some cruel volcano god Similar to how the Aztec Gods demanded blood sacrifices, from the best & the brightest of the population.
- reducesuffering 9y ago
  Source? I believe Aztec sacrifices were almost always prisoners of war from conquered tribes.
  - fergonco 9y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Codex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Codex What I remember is that their criteria to choose who were they throwing to the volcano was very varied and nonsensical. Like "children with more than one hair swirl" (not sure about last word, hope it is clear). And sometimes they didn't use a volcano but just remove the skin of victimes and store them in a cave. They will use the skins to dress up and dance a month later. In any case, victims were members of their society. It was maybe an honor. Yeah, colonizers were brutal, but it seems it was the state of the art back then...
    - yardie 9y ago
      If you mean the rose pattern that develops on the scalp at the back of the head. BTW, having two of those was a sign of luck, or so I was told.
  - briantakita 9y ago
    > I believe Aztec sacrifices were almost always prisoners of war from conquered tribes. One can argue that the America is conquered by Globalist institutions such as foreign banks.
jrimbault 9y ago
Yesterday I heard on the tv or radio I heard the metric "€/vote" as if a vote was product.
- problems 9y ago
  Probably trying to generate something similar to the "cost per conversion" numbers used in advertising. Nothing particularly nefarious about it.
- jorvi 9y ago
  I read on another HN thread that the top 25% pays 90% of taxes. Made me grok why governments will never really care about the poor pretty clearly. It's harsh, but for cities or even countries the bottom xx% is a net drain.
  - Shikadi 9y ago
    The top 25% would be broke if the bottom 75% couldn't afford their products and services
  - BatFastard 9y ago
    But the bottom 90% do the labor that earns that top 1% all the money.
    - madengr 9y ago
      But the top 1% provide the jobs. Unless the bottom 90% collectively strike, or you "nationalize" everything (that works really well /s), what ya gonna do about it?
      - BatFastard 9y ago
        Do they really "provide the jobs" the companies they own provide them. VERY few of those people are critical to the companies they own.
pillowkusis 9y ago
Your comparison to "the economy" as some dark being that demands sacrifice has been explored more deeply. It's a good read on why obviously terrible outcomes still happen even though we know it's bad. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- twoquestions 9y ago
  Not too proud to admit that essay directly inspired my comment, I just wanted to be more concise than SSC (which the opposite of difficult).
rnabel 9y ago
This is a good point - what strikes me about these arguments, however, is that the biggest problem (IMHO) stems from the fact that the economy often relies on local optimization, not global optimization. If we optimized human life quality globally everyone would get better healthcare etc., but since everyone makes the decisions that benefit them (+family and immediate surrounding), then we end up with worse healthcare for the vast majority of the population. As such, it should probably be the job of governments (regulation, incentives) to make 'globally' optimized decisions more attractive (centralized healthcare). In a best case scenario at least.
- twoquestions 9y ago
  That's the theory, it's just that a lot of people frankly have their heads too far up their asses to see how a global optimization is better than the local one. I don't care to be this coarse, but I've been trying for 10 minutes to find a better way of putting it.
  - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
    in my own experience, one of the primary ways people with an analytical bent (looking at you HN) have their heads up their asses is that they seem to think that the market is a perfect judge of value. hard to convince people of your point when they believe such a circular, lazy thing.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pixl97 9y ago
    >see how a global optimization is better than the local one. When the local maxima and global maxima do not align suffering occurs. This is why evoLuton picks a few broad things on a global scale, but at the local scale thing developed very differently
WalterSear 9y ago
That cruel volcano god is the hive mind of a handful of people making their personal lives better.
pm90 9y ago
The problem is just that we as a society have never had to plan for such a large proportion of our society being older and thus outside the (regular?) labor force. We created social security nets but they look increasingly like a ponzi scheme, making lots of young pay for the care of the old (in addition to contributions made by the old when they were a part of the labor force). Is this sustainable? I don't know.
- BuckRogers 9y ago
  It is sustainable if you manage it properly and don't rob the collection plate. Insurance is predicated on the same ponzi scheme, just usually private market based. Some insurance exec couldn't be embezzling millions and still have the numbers work out. I'd say it comes down to good management (as with anything) and priorities. A bad government is going to mismanage it and spend more on the military or other priorities, borrow money to make up the deficits and then of course everyone loses faith.
lkrubner 9y ago
As John Maynard Keynes said, the surprising thing is how long a stagnant or exploitive system can last. Such systems can last for centuries.
rb808 9y ago
That is a cynical view. Trying to forecast the cost of pension obligations is a real problem that has very real costs to companies, and can send companies bankrupt. The article shows that changing life expectancies mean a change of nearly $10B to estimated costs for just two companies. You can't run people's lives and companies based on hand-waving and assuming it'll be alright. OTOH maybe that is why our vending machine is full of unhealthy snacks. :) + I have to add problems like these is why companies now give 401ks to employees. Whether you live long or not now is the person's problem and the risk is no longer borne by the company.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Another cynical view is that it's a febrile fantasy to put all of your retirement eggs in the basket of an organization continuing to pay you over your entire lifetime.
HD134606c 9y ago
Just go for a drive through Los Gatos or Los Altos to know where all the blood and sweat is going. Even just look them up on Zillow with some unusual filters.

briantakita 9y ago

> Now I'm imagining our economy like some cruel volcano god Similar to how the Aztec Gods demanded blood sacrifices, from the best & the brightest of the population.

reducesuffering 9y ago
Source? I believe Aztec sacrifices were almost always prisoners of war from conquered tribes.
- fergonco 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Codex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentine_Codex What I remember is that their criteria to choose who were they throwing to the volcano was very varied and nonsensical. Like "children with more than one hair swirl" (not sure about last word, hope it is clear). And sometimes they didn't use a volcano but just remove the skin of victimes and store them in a cave. They will use the skins to dress up and dance a month later. In any case, victims were members of their society. It was maybe an honor. Yeah, colonizers were brutal, but it seems it was the state of the art back then...
  - yardie 9y ago
    If you mean the rose pattern that develops on the scalp at the back of the head. BTW, having two of those was a sign of luck, or so I was told.
- briantakita 9y ago
  > I believe Aztec sacrifices were almost always prisoners of war from conquered tribes. One can argue that the America is conquered by Globalist institutions such as foreign banks.

jrimbault 9y ago

Yesterday I heard on the tv or radio I heard the metric "€/vote" as if a vote was product.

problems 9y ago
Probably trying to generate something similar to the "cost per conversion" numbers used in advertising. Nothing particularly nefarious about it.
jorvi 9y ago
I read on another HN thread that the top 25% pays 90% of taxes. Made me grok why governments will never really care about the poor pretty clearly. It's harsh, but for cities or even countries the bottom xx% is a net drain.
- Shikadi 9y ago
  The top 25% would be broke if the bottom 75% couldn't afford their products and services
- BatFastard 9y ago
  But the bottom 90% do the labor that earns that top 1% all the money.
  - madengr 9y ago
    But the top 1% provide the jobs. Unless the bottom 90% collectively strike, or you "nationalize" everything (that works really well /s), what ya gonna do about it?
    - BatFastard 9y ago
      Do they really "provide the jobs" the companies they own provide them. VERY few of those people are critical to the companies they own.

pillowkusis 9y ago

Your comparison to "the economy" as some dark being that demands sacrifice has been explored more deeply. It's a good read on why obviously terrible outcomes still happen even though we know it's bad. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

twoquestions 9y ago
Not too proud to admit that essay directly inspired my comment, I just wanted to be more concise than SSC (which the opposite of difficult).

rnabel 9y ago

This is a good point - what strikes me about these arguments, however, is that the biggest problem (IMHO) stems from the fact that the economy often relies on local optimization, not global optimization. If we optimized human life quality globally everyone would get better healthcare etc., but since everyone makes the decisions that benefit them (+family and immediate surrounding), then we end up with worse healthcare for the vast majority of the population. As such, it should probably be the job of governments (regulation, incentives) to make 'globally' optimized decisions more attractive (centralized healthcare). In a best case scenario at least.

twoquestions 9y ago
That's the theory, it's just that a lot of people frankly have their heads too far up their asses to see how a global optimization is better than the local one. I don't care to be this coarse, but I've been trying for 10 minutes to find a better way of putting it.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  in my own experience, one of the primary ways people with an analytical bent (looking at you HN) have their heads up their asses is that they seem to think that the market is a perfect judge of value. hard to convince people of your point when they believe such a circular, lazy thing.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- pixl97 9y ago
  >see how a global optimization is better than the local one. When the local maxima and global maxima do not align suffering occurs. This is why evoLuton picks a few broad things on a global scale, but at the local scale thing developed very differently

WalterSear 9y ago

That cruel volcano god is the hive mind of a handful of people making their personal lives better.

pm90 9y ago

The problem is just that we as a society have never had to plan for such a large proportion of our society being older and thus outside the (regular?) labor force. We created social security nets but they look increasingly like a ponzi scheme, making lots of young pay for the care of the old (in addition to contributions made by the old when they were a part of the labor force). Is this sustainable? I don't know.

BuckRogers 9y ago
It is sustainable if you manage it properly and don't rob the collection plate. Insurance is predicated on the same ponzi scheme, just usually private market based. Some insurance exec couldn't be embezzling millions and still have the numbers work out. I'd say it comes down to good management (as with anything) and priorities. A bad government is going to mismanage it and spend more on the military or other priorities, borrow money to make up the deficits and then of course everyone loses faith.

lkrubner 9y ago

As John Maynard Keynes said, the surprising thing is how long a stagnant or exploitive system can last. Such systems can last for centuries.

rb808 9y ago

That is a cynical view. Trying to forecast the cost of pension obligations is a real problem that has very real costs to companies, and can send companies bankrupt. The article shows that changing life expectancies mean a change of nearly $10B to estimated costs for just two companies. You can't run people's lives and companies based on hand-waving and assuming it'll be alright. OTOH maybe that is why our vending machine is full of unhealthy snacks. :) + I have to add problems like these is why companies now give 401ks to employees. Whether you live long or not now is the person's problem and the risk is no longer borne by the company.

leggomylibro 9y ago
Another cynical view is that it's a febrile fantasy to put all of your retirement eggs in the basket of an organization continuing to pay you over your entire lifetime.

HD134606c 9y ago

Just go for a drive through Los Gatos or Los Altos to know where all the blood and sweat is going. Even just look them up on Zillow with some unusual filters.