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The Culture Wars Have Come to Silicon Valley
- mbillie1 9y ago"Silicon Valley’s politics have long skewed left, with a free-markets philosophy and a dash of libertarianism." This is not in any modern sense "left" (please don't bother pedantically bringing up "classical liberalism").
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- ryanmarsh 9y agoand a dash of libertarianism Just a dash? Just a smidge? LOL. That's not the Silicon Valley I moved to in 1999. No disintermediation and bitcoin here. No way.
- leereeves 9y agoI suspect the author meant "left, except for a free-markets philosophy and a dash of libertarianism". In many other ways SV is clearly skewed left.
- mbillie1 9y agoIn what sense could that possibly be "left" then?
- leereeves 9y agoThe American sense. Europeans might disagree and say that all Americans are on the right.
- mbillie1 9y ago> The American sense. With no economic components I'm genuinely curious what you consider the "American sense" of the left, in the sense of actual policy. Pro-choice, I guess?
- leereeves 9y agoWell, look at Hillary's platform: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ The economic components were maybe 1/3 of her platform, and not all of her economic positions were incompatible with free markets.
- mbillie1 9y agoI would dispute that Hillary is a left candidate whatsoever - she is a centrist, hawkish free-market neoliberal.
- leereeves 9y agoOpinions differ on the meaning of left/right. Europeans would probably consider her centrist or right-wing. Californians too, perhaps. But by American standards, her platform was well left of the average politician. (Though I suspect, had she been elected, she would have ignored the platform and governed as a corporatist.)
- mbillie1 9y ago> But by American standards, her platform was well left of the average politician. Again, only if you entirely discount her economic positions, which are the core positions of any "left" figure. You're free to paint with however wide a brush you wish, and your other comments in this thread leave little doubt that you'll retain your opinion regardless of how this exchange turns out. But simply because the Democratic party is the "more PC" corporate capitalist party, and the Republican party is the "less PC", does not mean that either of them represents anything remotely resembling economic left interests.
- jansho 9y agoNot all Europeans. Personally I think the French left is generally more right than the British and American left. The Swedish left is regarded by everyone else as utter madness. See how the media covered their refugee policy a few years ago.
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoIn all the ways that don't bother corporate.
- dionidium 9y agoIt's not the economics. It's all the other stuff. It's intersectional feminism, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage, abortion, diversity initiatives, and so on. There is one acceptable position on each of those issues. When somebody says, "Everybody at my company is a leftist!" they're not talking about people who read Marx and support trade unions. They're talking about culture.
- goatlover 9y agoAre they skewed left in the European sense or just the American?
- Clubber 9y agoFrom what I understand leftist politics in the US would be considered right in the EU. Casual observers of our political discourse from other countries have a hard time discerning the difference between our political parties. I assume this is because in terms of foreign policy, they largely agree.
- ryanmarsh 9y ago“What does it do to somebody when they feel like they literally can’t express themselves?” said Mr. Andreessen, a Facebook board member who backed Mrs. Clinton last year. Nailed it.
- ryanmarsh 9y agoImmediately down voted. LOL bring it on.
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- kazagistar 9y agoNo one cares about your politics, you just totally failed to add anything constructive to the discussion.
- Chris2048 9y agoI think people do care about his politics, but he failed to add anything constructive to the discussion.
- thecakeisalie1 9y agoRemember 20 years ago when we were all focused on studying computer science, building cool products and starting successful businesses around them? What happened? Valley Values are completely destroying the tech industry. We have Google, one of the most successful companies to ever exist, being brought to it's breaking point over identity politics and diversity initiatives. With the recent events, lawsuits and hoopla, I'm starting to view women as a liability in the workplace. As a business owner / Investor it seems like a liability to hire women. I find my self asking, if I hire this woman, how long before she starts to demand equality of outcome regardless of skill level? How long before she starts to threaten to destroy my company, my brand, my livelihood if I don't succumb to their requests?
- esteves_ 9y agoAnd it will end it.
- anewhnaccount2 9y ago> But for the right, it became a potent symbol of the tech industry’s intolerance of ideological diversity. To me, totally missing the point. Not just "for the right". To many who would consider themselves mostly aligned with left wing politics, myself included, this is just the latest in a long line of media (social and news) driven forced punishment for people guilty of expressing a viewpoint or just generally doing something a bit poor taste in public. It doesn't really matter if they've done wrong. It's not a considered or proportional type of response. Sure, there are far bigger injustices in the world than someone losing their job, but this sort of thing is wrong because it's for the wrong reason. It's headlines driven HR.
- vasilipupkin 9y agoI'm sorry, if you spend your time at work writing manifestos that ignite culture wars instead of working - you should be fired. Wanna write a manifesto? Create a blog post. I would be fired if I wrote a manifesto like this at my job - without any publicity
- FTA 9y agoNot that I agree with the statement, but it could easily be the case he wrote it on his own time and shared it at work on their internal Google+. Unless you have a source for your accusation, in which case I stand corrected.
- DiNovi 9y agoEven if you wrote it on your own time, sharing it with internally with your coworkers is toxic.
- jabv 9y agoSerious: do you see that your response is exactly what the memo was about? He's claiming that the pre-judgment that the topic is toxic is harmful. To argue against him by re-asserting that which he questions will not be persuasive.
- boobsbr 9y ago> Netflix’s Mr. Hastings warned Mr. Thiel last August, a few weeks after Mr. Trump had accepted the Republican nomination for president, that he would face consequences for backing Mr. Trump. > In contrast, Mr. Hastings, a supporter of Hillary Clinton ... From my PoV, the fact that Hastings has received no backlash for supporting Clinton after Trump won, is a sign that right-wingers/conservatives/Trump supporters are more tolerant of the opinions of left-wingers/liberals/progressives/Clinton supporters than the other way around.
- mbillie1 9y ago"I have found a single sample from which I will generalize broadly about the entire country."
- leereeves 9y agoDo you have any examples of people punished for supporting Clinton? I'd be interested to hear about them; I'm not aware of any.
- and0 9y agoThe far left is dunking on the center / Clinton establishment pretty hard all across the internet, which has been immensely satisfying. That being said, Clinton was pretty tepid and corrupt, not openly offensive and terrifying the way Trump is. Unless you're REALLY desperate you can't honestly say supporting one or the other is the same.
- boobsbr 9y ago> not openly offensive Basket of deplorables...
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- austenallred 9y agoI don't like Donald Trump any more than the next person (and I would never vote for him), but watching people line up actively encouraging punishing (or firing) people based on who they voted for is crazy, especially because about half the country voted for the guy. I come from a small town where Trump dominated Clinton, and most people I know voted for Trump holding their noses. They considered him to be a less-bad option, and Thiel even said as much in interviews. Yet folks are being smeared for being "complicit" and dragged as if they are Trump, or agree with everything he stands for. I don't think that's ever happened before, at least publicly. Every candidate I've ever seen has major flaws, and people that lack those flaws and even despise those flaws voted for them anyway. I get that Trump is particularly incompetent, but if voting for a candidate that wins the election is a punishable offense maybe we should rethink our political activism.
- mbillie1 9y agoExcept that the google engineer this article refers to was not punished or fired for supporting Trump; he was fired for circulating a memo which claimed there were immutable biological reasons why approximately 50% of the workforce was unfit to work in his industry.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- soVeryTired 9y agoCome on. I think some of his arguments were flawed but that's not what he said. For christ's sake.
- vkou 9y agoHe claimed that women are more neurotic and emotional, that it negatively correlates with engineering performance, and that it is the reason why they aren't succeeding. He claims that, therefore, we should make software engineering more emotional and people-focused.
- d0100 9y agoIt's unfortunate how both political extremes are just the same: The right uses the state to censure. The left uses people and popularity to censure. To fight the dictators I can simply join a militia and fight a civil war. But how to I fight people? I'm not popular, I'm not cool, I'm not socially connected. I am no one. How do I maintain my rights when those depriving me of them are everyone else? If I'm targeted by the populist mass, where is my recourse? I'm lucky that I live in a country where I could just study and pass a test to be a public servant, where I'm guaranteed a job and won't be fired based on public outrage. But what about others?
- boobsbr 9y agoHow is the right using the state to censure? Are you referring to the US, or in a global context?
- creaghpatr 9y agoIf anything, the state censures any speech that goes against hand-picked 'protected groups'
- and0 9y agoThe state doesn't censor speech. Hate speech laws (in the US, anyway) aren't very strong, for example the Supreme Court in the USA didn't rule against the Westboro Baptist Church or even people burning crosses on black family's property. (All these people whining about "facts" being censored and none of them are using facts of their own..)
- dijit 9y agoThink: Russia. The state says there are no gays, therefore if you discuss being gay with people you will be arrested for propaganda. Ring wing censorship comes from the state, left wing censorship comes from peers.
- Chris2048 9y ago
- Clubber 9y agoI believe it's illegal in the US to fire someone for their political leanings, but not if you say something outrageous like women aren't built for tech jobs (or whatever he said). That being said, it's never a good idea to get on a soapbox about politics at work (or anywhere really). It doesn't make a difference in your listeners opinions and only gets people with opposing views aggravated. Best to just think about the issues and vote come election.
- boobsbr 9y ago> I believe it's illegal in the US to fire someone for their political leanings, but not if you say something outrageous like women aren't built for tech jobs (or whatever he said). It's easy to circumvent the legal issue, just have a vague code of conduct and claim the employee broke said code of conduct.
- Clubber 9y agoI agree, or just attribute it to not having a "cultural fit."
- ForRealsies 9y ago"You really need to read it again. He never brings of the topic of suitability. His section about biological differences only discusses why genders tend to choose certain professions."
- Chris2048 9y agoQuotes?
- anapaix 9y agohe complained to the labor board about this issue before he wrote the memo, and apparently it is illegal in California to fire someone for complaining about their work conditions. certainly not a slam dunk case, but he may have some reasonable basis for a case.
- dionidium 9y ago
- docdeek 9y ago>Mr. Hastings, the chairman of a committee that evaluates Facebook’s board members, told Mr. Thiel in an email dated Aug. 14 that the advocacy would reflect badly on Mr. Thiel during a review of Facebook directors scheduled for the next day… "I’m so mystified by your endorsement of Trump for our President, that for me it moves from ‘different judgment’ to ‘bad judgment.’ Some diversity in views is healthy, but catastrophically bad judgment (in my view) is not what anyone wants in a fellow board member.” Is it legal in the US for someone to judge a person’s political beliefs or a declared support for a candidate in a performance review? I can imagine that even if the answer is ‘no’ that things might be different on a public board where it is less ‘performance review’ and more ‘public face of the company’, but the idea of judging someone professionally on the basis of their personal politics at the ballot box seems a little disturbing to me.
- gnicholas 9y agoThe article claims, and as a (former) lawyer this seems plausible, that in California this would be illegal as it pertains to employees. But you're right that executives are often treated differently, and board members even more so (since they're not just management - they're not employees at all). But I believe that under federal law political views are not currently a protected status, so it would not necessarily be illegal to fire someone for their political beliefs. Though this might seem odd, it is perhaps a behavior that is sufficiently deterred by the fact that it would be very bad for business in many cases. Remaining employees could be upset by it, customers and potential customers could be alienated, and legal challenges could be mounted under various theories. Another reason that this could be less common that might expect, given that it's legal under federal law, is that some states are not at-will employment states (like California is), so it's generally harder to fire employees in general.
- heurist 9y agoI don't know the answer to that question. But if you honestly believed Vermin Supreme should be president I'd question your judgement too.
- rm_-rf_slash 9y agoAt this point everybody's made up their minds, assigned heros and villains and victims, and now flood every comment board on the internet to repeat their own existing beliefs. Has anybody's mind been changed at all through this whole ordeal? Or are we just going to sail through another historic moment of cultural reckoning with our comfortable beliefs firmly intact and affirmed the whole way through?
- DiNovi 9y agodid you read the document? Did you think it was an appropriate workplace share?
- Chris2048 9y ago> Did you think it was an appropriate workplace share Depends on the workplace, doesn't it?
- anapaix 9y agoI read all 3000 words. Of course it was an appropriate work place share--he was complaining about the working conditions of his company. He said that he had previously complained to the labor board as well. How are you supposed to complain about your company and discriminating work conditions if you never tell your company?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- and0 9y agoThere isn't a conversation. There isn't going to be a conversation just because you keep insisting there is. Insisting that there is in an indirect way, such as moralizing over how we go about this non-existent conversation, aside from being useless and weird is also not a clever way to make a conversation magically happen.
- reitanqild 9y agoSome people are trying to hold a conversation here. Sometimes some relevant points emerge from both sides in between the shouting and flagging. If you don’t think there is a conversation here I guess you are free to leave unless you are a mod.
- and0 9y agoYeah, and everyone who knows better is ignoring you. The entire point of all the impotent rage in these threads is about how no one is "willing to engage", therefore no there's isn't a "conversation" for you to insist is being "hurt". If I followed people around insisting about talking about human sacrifice they would dismiss me, and if I kept following them saying things like "you're just hurting the conversation" it'd be pretty obvious I was either delusional or being manipulative.
- reitanqild 9y agoAgain: you are free to leave.
- jshevek 9y agoI can't speak for the other party, but there are people who promote their ideology on the premise that any disagreement simply must, necessarily, be predicated on an immoral worldview. They explicitly state that indulging such people in an exchange of words is not "a conversation." It seems to have something to do with establishing themselves as gatekeepers of valid and invalid exchanges of words.
- almonj 9y ago"Supporters of women in tech praised Google." .. total lockdown of discourse is helpful to women? Outright firing anybody who dares to ask for open discussion is creating a more woman friendly working environment? This is pretty sexist. They are openly saying that in order for women to succeed we need authoritarian thought policing, and that if you are a woman you automatically agree with their agenda. Something strange is going on here.
- balance_factor 9y agoOne of the ironic things about this is the right has fought for years to empower corporations, and disempower workers, then goes apoplectic when Google Inc sees him as a liability and disposes of him like a used tissue. Damore sees the left as the problem, then files an NLRB complaint to try to protect himself. The biologically IQ-superior Damore might be surprised to find that the worker protections of the NLRB have been systematically hollowed out over the preceding decades by his conservative pals. Conservatives and Republicans fought decades to enshrine the power of corporations and the 1%, and to undermine any worker autonomy. I have to roll my eyes at all this. I guess Damore found out the hard way that he's not part of the biologically IQ superior clique he thought he was part of.
- jabv 9y agoI did ctrl-f for "iq" at diversitymemo.com and only came up with a reference to a comparison Damore made about types of scientific evidence the left or right tend to ignore. The comment in question was not referring to IQ of males or females in any way. So I am not sure where your accusations regarding IQ come from.
- supremesaboteur 9y agoThe Right is not fighting for the rights of corporations. They believe that a free society best protects the rights of the little guy
- matt4077 9y agoIt's just terribly convenient to believe that everything that's good for large corporations is also good for "the little guy". Considering the balancing of these interests (which most people consider to at least sometimes conflict) is the core issue of politics, such a belief would actually render politics useless. You could just appoint the top 10 CEOs and wait for the trickle-down wealth to wash over the masses.
- SmirkingRevenge 9y agoThe problem with "whataboutism" is that its an infinite loop. If this were Hobby Lobby or Chick Filet, and an employee wrote an "pro birth-control screed" on their company discussion board, and was promptly fired, many of the people on the right standing up for the Google engineer would currently be defending the rights of big business to fire who they want, and attacking the fired employee for lacking awareness and common sense to know his audience, and to keep his politics out of his work environment, etc. But that's a bit of a cold comfort, since so many of the left are doing that exact same thing now. And do the exact opposite in cases where the situation is the inverse. Basically, most people are hypocrites. How do we get past this garbage? I wish I knew.
- DiNovi 9y agoComments in here show that silicon valley still has a lot to reckon with their engineers
- Tasboo 9y agoPro tip: unless it's part of your job, don't talk about politics at work. It's your place of work, it isn't /r/politics. If there is a specific policy that you'd like addressed, bring it up without a bunch of political baggage. On a side note: The article mentions alt right people complaining that a lot of SV companies' cultures are left leaning, which I think bizarre. There are plenty of industries that lean far right, in fact, unless the company is a non-profit or is in the public sector, in my experience the typical company culture is more right leaning than left. In most companies outside of SV, diversity programs are almost non-existent or just something that is briefly mentioned on the careers page. The fact that Google or other SV companies have robust diversity programs and have cultures that lean left is an anomaly and freaking out that you aren't included in these companies' diversity programs or that you feel on the outside of the company culture screams of entitlement and ignorance of the actual reality that minorities and women face in the rest of the job market.
- leemailll 9y agoIt feels like those guys in Silicon Valley are trying their best ways to homogenize their minds
- kushti 9y agoSilicon Valley is like USSR in 70s-80s: you can say anything, but for saying things not in the party's line you would be expelled from a higher social class.
- matt4077 9y ago> Silicon Valley is like USSR in 70s-80s: Totally, except for the economic stagnation, widespread malnutrition, common alcoholism, kleptocratic gerontocracy, almost every way, and the actual arrests of dissidents. Oh, and losing a war in Afghanistan also doesn't seem to be in Twitter's immediate future.
- kushti 9y agoYou dont' get the comparison at all. And btw, Bay Area is full of drugsters, not to say that the country is losing the war in Afghanistan, as well as couple of other wars.
- at-fates-hands 9y agoWelcome to 2017 where we're currently in the throes of an ideological civil war. Politics used to be a gentleman's game. Sure, you argue and huff and puff over bills, and the opposing parties viewpoints, but at the end of the day - you found compromise. The last decade or so? No such thing. Politics is now a bloodsport. Total victory is the only option. - Different viewpoints? Not allowed. - Compromise? Not allowed. - Rational discourse? Not allowed. - Don't believe what I believe? Your're a racist, bigot, homophobe, xenophobe, misogynist. The Liberal ideology that has dominated politics for the last decade is now eroding, the Republicans own Washington DC right now and its rather off putting to the people who used to be in power. The whole Google issue just highlights that this isn't going to end anytime soon - but it sure didn't start with Trump, and it sure didn't just "land on Silicon valley's doorstep" this past week. I think the larger question is when is rational discourse going to return? Google had an incredible opportunity to create a forum to discuss the issues the author brought up. Instead, they had a knee jerk reaction, based on the current environment, and fired the guy. They would rather deal with a lawsuit, a ton of backlash and a social media furor I haven't seen in a while, instead of having an open dialogue on what happened and why this guy believes what he believes. Can him, put him the box and label him an evil person and let's move on. Nobody wins, and nothing is gained. Another wasted opportunity. Sad and depressing this is where we are as a country.
- tangent128 9y agoRational discourse is only possible in an environment where people can agree on what (at least most of) the facts are, and we don't have that today. I don't have a solution.
- heurist 9y agoI'd hesitate to say liberal politics dominated DC. In the last decade there were only two years where Democrats were able to pass liberal legislation at the federal level: 2008-2010. Even then it was a slog. Republican powers keep pushing the Overton window further and further right and liberals are supposed to just accept it? No, they're going to draw a line and learn to fight back. Only "The Party of No" bears the burden of compromise at this point.
- 9y ago
- pmurT 9y agoNon-white and grew up with a very religious background - even lived in a religious commune-like environment for a few years. The current environment in the bay reminds me of those days in many ways - the incredible pressure to visibly signal virtue through study, fasting, public displays of humility, etc. It's easy to trick yourself in thinking you actually believe and this is the only way, but it quickly fades once you're out of the environment