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I don't know if your assessment of that is accurate. I opened 2 cards last year, the AMEX Platinum and Chase Sapphire Reserve deal. I got 100k points for each c

I don't know if your assessment of that is accurate. I opened 2 cards last year, the AMEX Platinum and Chase Sapphire Reserve deal. I got 100k points for each card. I had some existing points and then some extra spending and I was able to get 2 business class tickets to Japan ($18k value) and 15 nights in 5 and 6 star Hyatt hotels. That was probably another $8k in value. I spent 170k AMEX points on the flights and 155k Chase points on the hotels. That trip was amazing and it was only possible because of the points. Was it a lot of work? Not really. I just put all my spending on my AMEX for a few months. Then I switched to the Chase Sapphire for a months. Once I got all the points I needed, I just transferred the the Amex points to ANA and the Chase points to Hyatt. I then booked my flights and hotels. Booking flights was slightly harder as my fiance and I weren't married so we had to transfer points to separate accounts, but it definitely wasn't a chore at all. A simple phone call to AMEX took care of that. Booking rooms with Hyatt and using points was a breeze. There are other benefits of having high end cards too. I got Global Entry for my fiance and I ($200 value). We didn't have to go through customs on the way back to USA. I got $300 travel credit from CSR card per year. $200 airline credit from AMEX Plat. I was able to get orchestra tickets to Hamilton in NYC for $399 through AMEX plat. If I had a million points, I could book 3-4 dream vacations. Not sure what went wrong with your redemptions.

charlesdm 9y ago
Isn't the Amex platinum $550 a year though? Still a good deal, but not entirely free either?
- bonesinger 9y ago
  When I got it was $450, they recently raised the prices. Even if you run the calculations, its still worth it. $550 a year fee $200 airline credit $200 Uber credit $20 Global Entry credit per year (Prorated. Global entry costs $100 per 5 years and AMEX will cover the cost). Gold status with SPG and Hilton Lounge access at many airports Free subscription to GoGo for in flight internet (domestic) And lastly, AMEX Platinum Concierge is still the best service for any card. 5x points on airline purchases. Chase Sapphire has even better value. $450 fee $300 credit per year (When I got this card, I was able to redeem the credit twice due to the timing and how Chase calculates the year.) ALso Chase's credit is far more useful since "travel" is loosely defined for them. Lounge access $20 Global Entry Credit per year (used this one for fiance) Travel insurance No Foreign Transaction fees 3x points on dining and 3x on travel.
  - provost 9y ago
    The AMEX redemptions are some of the worst, and they are losing partners. They also didn't auto-reimburse me for the airline credit when I followed all their instructions. They also didn't reimburse me for Uber credit -- apparently it doesn't work when the trips are in other countries (only the US), which is a really lame for a "travel" card.
    - bonesinger 9y ago
      For ANA its pretty sweet. 85k round trip on business to Asia. But, in general I agree I think they are on the down fall and they need to come up with some new things to remain competitive. The hotel status are the only reason I have them because I have been traveling a lot lately and its worth it. I may end up cancelling it in the future.
Sleeep 9y ago
You can't call your airlines tickets $18k in value because you wouldn't have spent $18k on two airline tickets. My value is the max I'm willing to pay for a ticket, not the price the airline says the ticket I redeemed for is worth. Bloggers say this too and it's disingenuous. For me those tickets would be $5k because that's the most I'm willing to pay for two tickets to Japan. It's a pain to figure out the best way to get from point A to point B using points. You have to figure out which points to collect,then you have to collect enough of them, then figure out which time of the year to go where the redemptions you can afford are. Then you have to transfer and book on partner airlines. It certainly isn't straightforward. Yeah, sure, you can do a big trip with two HUGE sign up bonuses of flexible points very easily. Being able to get one high quality trip isn't the same as being able to get many high quality trips, you aren't going to be able to do that a couple times a year (which is what bloggers make it seem like). Travel bloggers promote churning through cards to keep generating more points. You can't just churn through Platinum and CSR applications over and over again. (Platinum is churable to an extent but that's another topic and AMEX is cracking down on that) Those two sign up bonuses you got are not common and the CSR one won't come back ever again (Chase is losing money on the CSR, look for a devaluation in the future). Also your points have to be spread out among 5+ different loyalty programs if you want to continue churning credit cards/points/bonuses. My redemptions are fine, they fit my needs. I have not redeemed a lot yet. I haven't planned a big trip yet. So far all my redemptions have been for a couple nights at a time. You aren't going to get as much value if you simply fly domestic. Flying to Japan may get you the most value but it's worthless if you don't want to fly to Japan. Anyways, my point of the GP was: -TPG and most travel blogs are a business that are making money off you. -Points aren't as simple as "sign up for credit card, fly to Japan," you have to be flexible and usually to get a good redemption you'll have to transfer and book off peak. Availably is limited. -To get more than 1-2 trips you're going to have to game the system. Sign up, collect bonuses, close card, repeat. You hit a wall with this after a while. -Credit card companies are cracking down on gamers. -Some people are better off getting part time job with how much effort they put into gaming the system. -The rules are always changing.
- joelrunyon 9y ago
  That's a dumb way to value it. You can get a $500 hotel on points. You don't say "well, I live for free at home, so technically this night is worth nothing." Just because you can "buy" something with a different currency that might make more sense, doesn't make it cost less in USD if you were to purchase it outright.
BlackJack 9y ago
Would you have paid $18K to fly to Japan though? The "cents per mile" is high but it's better to measure your WTP (willingness to pay). BTW, you can regularly get west coast to Japan in business class for ~$3-4k/pp. ex. https://goo.gl/flights/BDTu https://goo.gl/flights/BDTu. If you wait for deals, there was Vancouver - Japan/Hong Kong/SE Asia for ~$2k in business class for a while. Business class prices have been consistently dropping transatlantic (TATL) and we're seeing that transpacific (TPAC) too, albeit more slowly. I think what you did was smart, but there's really no way to continue to get that kind of value from your miles. You could get the other Amex cards (~150k MR?), and other Chase cards (~150k UR?), but hard to repeatedly get big bonuses like that :P Totally agree though that keeping one or both of those cards is great for the right kind of spend. It's just not like a free trip to Europe every quarter like it used to be.
- bonesinger 9y ago
  Yes thats true, I conceded that point in another reply to Sleeep. I did look up tickets just now and they are about $6500/person on ANA. I specifically looked up ANA because I wanted to fly on one of the better airlines. The service I got was absolutely fantastic.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  Not sure how much "willingness to pay" makes sense. This is more about taking advantage of money which would otherwise be left on the table. If you aren't going out of your way to spend on cards, and all you need to do is shift spending onto certain cards for certain purchases during the first X months in order to get a nice point bonus, seems like a nice way to get a free vacation.
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    It isn't accurate to count it as $18k in realized value from cc points if you would have never spent that much on the thing without the points. The actual realized value is the amount that one would have been willing spend on the thing with their _own_ money, if they didn't have the points.
sersi 9y ago
2 business class tickets is definitely not $18k in value. There are regularly sales with various airlines when you can get a business class to Japan for around $2k per ticket. And since availabilities for rewards vary and are sometimes hard to come buy, you cannot compare them to the price of a fully flexible airline ticket. But that said, you can get good value from using miles.
- bonesinger 9y ago
  I know they aren't normally that much, but at the time they were like 8800 per person. I had a specific airline in mind when I flew because I wanted the full experience. ANA currently is like $6500/person for business but I felt it was well worth the cost. I know you can get cheaper tickets.
ac29 9y ago
Out of curiosity, how much do you have to spend to get those bonus miles? Right now Chase Sapphire Reserve will give you 50k miles for $4k in spending within 3 months (in addition to the $450 annual fee). It just seems like a lot of these credit card based mileage schemes are really limited to people who can naturally spend tens of thousands a year on credit cards and can additionally afford the potentially thousands more in annual fees (if you have multiple cards). For those who aren't in the top 20th percentile of income, or who just prefer a frugal lifestyle, I don't see how its viable. Or are there tricks to manufacture spending and recoup your costs?
- bonesinger 9y ago
  When I signed up to those two cards, it was $3k spend in 3 months for each card. I also signed up at different times. For my Amex platinum I actually put my security deposit on it for 2k and 2k down on a car haha. You can manufacture spending and spend something like $10,000 a month on gift cards, then turn that back into cash to pay your credit card bill. Not sure how to do it and its also risky. AMEX/Chase have been closing accounts for it and one guy was doing it with Money Orders and the US Postal Service went after him for money laundering. As for me I have a natural spend of about 5500 a month for all expenses and rent. I paid rent using Plastiq (2.5% fee) for a while and got triple points before Chase cut off the triple points offer on Plastiq's services. They re-categorized it as a business service instead of travel. It definitely favors higher incomes for sure. I can put 4-5000 a month on a card and with point bonuses, earn something like 6-8000 points per month. So in 2 years we'll have enough to go on another dream vacation (Probably Japan again cause it was amazing!). EDIT: You can down grade your card to a no fee card after you've gotten your bonuses. Then later re apply. AMEX has language in their Terms that limits you to 1 bonus per card per lifetime, but recently some of their cards do not have that language. Chase limits you to 5 cards opened in a 24 month period, regardless of the credit card servicer. Citi also has some form of restriction. This all recently started in the last year or 2.
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    AMEX is calling out downgrading after 12 months as a way to lose your sign up bonus as of a few weeks ago. They are cracking down on people who don't have a serious interest in keeping the card. This is one of the reasons why I said the golden age is well over - https://www.doctorofcredit.com/amex-updates-terms-penalize-gaming-signup-bonus-system/ https://www.doctorofcredit.com/amex-updates-terms-penalize-g...

charlesdm 9y ago

Isn't the Amex platinum $550 a year though? Still a good deal, but not entirely free either?

bonesinger 9y ago
When I got it was $450, they recently raised the prices. Even if you run the calculations, its still worth it. $550 a year fee $200 airline credit $200 Uber credit $20 Global Entry credit per year (Prorated. Global entry costs $100 per 5 years and AMEX will cover the cost). Gold status with SPG and Hilton Lounge access at many airports Free subscription to GoGo for in flight internet (domestic) And lastly, AMEX Platinum Concierge is still the best service for any card. 5x points on airline purchases. Chase Sapphire has even better value. $450 fee $300 credit per year (When I got this card, I was able to redeem the credit twice due to the timing and how Chase calculates the year.) ALso Chase's credit is far more useful since "travel" is loosely defined for them. Lounge access $20 Global Entry Credit per year (used this one for fiance) Travel insurance No Foreign Transaction fees 3x points on dining and 3x on travel.
- provost 9y ago
  The AMEX redemptions are some of the worst, and they are losing partners. They also didn't auto-reimburse me for the airline credit when I followed all their instructions. They also didn't reimburse me for Uber credit -- apparently it doesn't work when the trips are in other countries (only the US), which is a really lame for a "travel" card.
  - bonesinger 9y ago
    For ANA its pretty sweet. 85k round trip on business to Asia. But, in general I agree I think they are on the down fall and they need to come up with some new things to remain competitive. The hotel status are the only reason I have them because I have been traveling a lot lately and its worth it. I may end up cancelling it in the future.

Sleeep 9y ago

You can't call your airlines tickets $18k in value because you wouldn't have spent $18k on two airline tickets. My value is the max I'm willing to pay for a ticket, not the price the airline says the ticket I redeemed for is worth. Bloggers say this too and it's disingenuous. For me those tickets would be $5k because that's the most I'm willing to pay for two tickets to Japan. It's a pain to figure out the best way to get from point A to point B using points. You have to figure out which points to collect,then you have to collect enough of them, then figure out which time of the year to go where the redemptions you can afford are. Then you have to transfer and book on partner airlines. It certainly isn't straightforward. Yeah, sure, you can do a big trip with two HUGE sign up bonuses of flexible points very easily. Being able to get one high quality trip isn't the same as being able to get many high quality trips, you aren't going to be able to do that a couple times a year (which is what bloggers make it seem like). Travel bloggers promote churning through cards to keep generating more points. You can't just churn through Platinum and CSR applications over and over again. (Platinum is churable to an extent but that's another topic and AMEX is cracking down on that) Those two sign up bonuses you got are not common and the CSR one won't come back ever again (Chase is losing money on the CSR, look for a devaluation in the future). Also your points have to be spread out among 5+ different loyalty programs if you want to continue churning credit cards/points/bonuses. My redemptions are fine, they fit my needs. I have not redeemed a lot yet. I haven't planned a big trip yet. So far all my redemptions have been for a couple nights at a time. You aren't going to get as much value if you simply fly domestic. Flying to Japan may get you the most value but it's worthless if you don't want to fly to Japan. Anyways, my point of the GP was: -TPG and most travel blogs are a business that are making money off you. -Points aren't as simple as "sign up for credit card, fly to Japan," you have to be flexible and usually to get a good redemption you'll have to transfer and book off peak. Availably is limited. -To get more than 1-2 trips you're going to have to game the system. Sign up, collect bonuses, close card, repeat. You hit a wall with this after a while. -Credit card companies are cracking down on gamers. -Some people are better off getting part time job with how much effort they put into gaming the system. -The rules are always changing.

joelrunyon 9y ago
That's a dumb way to value it. You can get a $500 hotel on points. You don't say "well, I live for free at home, so technically this night is worth nothing." Just because you can "buy" something with a different currency that might make more sense, doesn't make it cost less in USD if you were to purchase it outright.

BlackJack 9y ago

Would you have paid $18K to fly to Japan though? The "cents per mile" is high but it's better to measure your WTP (willingness to pay). BTW, you can regularly get west coast to Japan in business class for ~$3-4k/pp. ex. https://goo.gl/flights/BDTu https://goo.gl/flights/BDTu. If you wait for deals, there was Vancouver - Japan/Hong Kong/SE Asia for ~$2k in business class for a while. Business class prices have been consistently dropping transatlantic (TATL) and we're seeing that transpacific (TPAC) too, albeit more slowly. I think what you did was smart, but there's really no way to continue to get that kind of value from your miles. You could get the other Amex cards (~150k MR?), and other Chase cards (~150k UR?), but hard to repeatedly get big bonuses like that :P Totally agree though that keeping one or both of those cards is great for the right kind of spend. It's just not like a free trip to Europe every quarter like it used to be.

bonesinger 9y ago
Yes thats true, I conceded that point in another reply to Sleeep. I did look up tickets just now and they are about $6500/person on ANA. I specifically looked up ANA because I wanted to fly on one of the better airlines. The service I got was absolutely fantastic.
willstrafach 9y ago
Not sure how much "willingness to pay" makes sense. This is more about taking advantage of money which would otherwise be left on the table. If you aren't going out of your way to spend on cards, and all you need to do is shift spending onto certain cards for certain purchases during the first X months in order to get a nice point bonus, seems like a nice way to get a free vacation.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  It isn't accurate to count it as $18k in realized value from cc points if you would have never spent that much on the thing without the points. The actual realized value is the amount that one would have been willing spend on the thing with their _own_ money, if they didn't have the points.

sersi 9y ago

2 business class tickets is definitely not $18k in value. There are regularly sales with various airlines when you can get a business class to Japan for around $2k per ticket. And since availabilities for rewards vary and are sometimes hard to come buy, you cannot compare them to the price of a fully flexible airline ticket. But that said, you can get good value from using miles.

bonesinger 9y ago
I know they aren't normally that much, but at the time they were like 8800 per person. I had a specific airline in mind when I flew because I wanted the full experience. ANA currently is like $6500/person for business but I felt it was well worth the cost. I know you can get cheaper tickets.

ac29 9y ago

Out of curiosity, how much do you have to spend to get those bonus miles? Right now Chase Sapphire Reserve will give you 50k miles for $4k in spending within 3 months (in addition to the $450 annual fee). It just seems like a lot of these credit card based mileage schemes are really limited to people who can naturally spend tens of thousands a year on credit cards and can additionally afford the potentially thousands more in annual fees (if you have multiple cards). For those who aren't in the top 20th percentile of income, or who just prefer a frugal lifestyle, I don't see how its viable. Or are there tricks to manufacture spending and recoup your costs?

bonesinger 9y ago
When I signed up to those two cards, it was $3k spend in 3 months for each card. I also signed up at different times. For my Amex platinum I actually put my security deposit on it for 2k and 2k down on a car haha. You can manufacture spending and spend something like $10,000 a month on gift cards, then turn that back into cash to pay your credit card bill. Not sure how to do it and its also risky. AMEX/Chase have been closing accounts for it and one guy was doing it with Money Orders and the US Postal Service went after him for money laundering. As for me I have a natural spend of about 5500 a month for all expenses and rent. I paid rent using Plastiq (2.5% fee) for a while and got triple points before Chase cut off the triple points offer on Plastiq's services. They re-categorized it as a business service instead of travel. It definitely favors higher incomes for sure. I can put 4-5000 a month on a card and with point bonuses, earn something like 6-8000 points per month. So in 2 years we'll have enough to go on another dream vacation (Probably Japan again cause it was amazing!). EDIT: You can down grade your card to a no fee card after you've gotten your bonuses. Then later re apply. AMEX has language in their Terms that limits you to 1 bonus per card per lifetime, but recently some of their cards do not have that language. Chase limits you to 5 cards opened in a 24 month period, regardless of the credit card servicer. Citi also has some form of restriction. This all recently started in the last year or 2.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  AMEX is calling out downgrading after 12 months as a way to lose your sign up bonus as of a few weeks ago. They are cracking down on people who don't have a serious interest in keeping the card. This is one of the reasons why I said the golden age is well over - https://www.doctorofcredit.com/amex-updates-terms-penalize-gaming-signup-bonus-system/ https://www.doctorofcredit.com/amex-updates-terms-penalize-g...