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Every time an article like this pops up, I see the same sort of response. It's always - Women don't negotiate - Women get pregnant - Women work in lower pay

Every time an article like this pops up, I see the same sort of response. It's always - Women don't negotiate - Women get pregnant - Women work in lower pay professions And 90% of the time, the article already accounts for the nuances of those topics. Not to mention these arguments have been answered thoroughly many times over, and a cursory google would reveal that. I just wish people would do some basic research before posting, especially in the light of the Google memo.

AckSyn 9y ago
And it's also been proven time and time again that the "gender pay gap" is a lie. A myth propagated by people who don't know how to read statistics and raw data, instead curating it to be something it isn't.
jorgemf 9y ago
Even if those facts are true, Google must have programs to make things fair. For same responsibilities same salary. You can say women are different than men or say they are exactly equals. Whatever is your position for the same job you must have the same salary. There shouldn't be any discussion here.
- throwaway9853 9y ago
  > For same responsibilities same salary. Why is that? If there is someone who is willing to take on those responsibilities for less pay, well that's just fine for the company and I think that people tend to forget that Google (and many other IT companies) is a for-profit company. For me at least, I've always seen salary negotiations as somewhat of a "right person at the right moment". If you're very lucky and the company really needs they will be willing to pay you more than what you would make at a different company on the same role, maybe more than what others are doing on the same role, just because you were there, at that time, when they were most in need. It may not always be like that, but think of it as demand/offer relationship. So regardless of gender/race it's the need of the company that comes first. Because as a employee you fulfill a need that the company has and you are being paid for that.
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    Throwaway account created one hour ago? So you say that some who is starving if Africa we shouldn't care because he wasn't at the right place at the right moment? If you answer is that it is not the same case where do you put the line? Because your argument for getting things is basically luck.
    - throwaway9853 9y ago
      Yes and it's luck + skills. Because otherwise you wouldn't even be in that position in the first place. And what does Africa have to do with this? This was related to people working at Google and/or similar companies. So you're point is that we should give unqualified people jobs that they are clearly not meant for just because they are having a hard time? There are NGOs and state help for this. Of course if I'm having a hard time, I'd like someone to help me, but the first one to help me should be ME. I should do everything that is in my power to help myself, I shouldn't expect help from others. Don't know if that is what you were asking, but please stay on the topic of the discussion next time.
      - jorgemf 9y ago
        I want to balance the world and given the people what they deserve (same job = same salary). Try to fix the luck issue (either if you are starving in Africa or your salary at google is lower than the rest). I never said given unqualified people better jobs, I said give people in the same jobs the same salary (don't accuse me of not staying in the point when you don't understand my argument and them make a claim of something I didn't say, please). > I'm having a hard time, I'd like someone to help me, but the first one to help me should be ME. I should do everything that is in my power to help myself, I shouldn't expect help from others. You think everybody has the same opportunities in the world, which is not the case. Sometimes you need external help and you cannot do anything by yourself (maybe you are lucky and will never suffer this, but doesn't imply it doesn't happenn). I am asking the same question again, where do you put the line to take an action? For you it is clear the jobs are not an issue, if someone have a better salary with the same job position we shouldn't do anything. But when should we start taking action when the luck is harming people? I put the example of the person in africa starving as an extreme to try to help with my argument.
- rplst8 9y ago
  Why should same responsibilities = same salary? What if Joe and I and have the same responsibilities. Just to build working code. However, I can produce 100 working/tested lines of code a day and Joe can produce 150 lines of the same. Joe isn't entitled to a higher salary because he's more talented?
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    lines of code as productivity measure is not the best example. Can you provide a better example? I can drop your example just with this: maybe your 100 working/tested lines produce more money for the company that the ones Joe wrote. Or the company needs the 250 lines of code to produce any money, without all of them your value for the company is 0.
    - forthefuture 9y ago
      The point is not that 150 lines is better than 100, it's that two people with the same job do not have the same productivity. Measure productivity by whatever metric you want, it's impossible for two people to do the exact same (amount / value) work. The only way to prove salaries are just is for every single person to have a different salary.
      - jorgemf 9y ago
        I agree with everything. But two points. First you cannot measure productivity per employee, it is incredible complicated. Second the difference is not going to be as big as you would expect to have huge differences in terms of salary (like 20% or more). So basically I think when two people with the same job positions have a very different salary you have a clear bias to give one more than the other. If they are really different in their productivity you might consider to fire the less productive or give the other person a better category (in the companies they have Junior I Junior II, Senior I, Senior II, etc).
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
"- Women don't negotiate" I've read the article a third time, I can't find how "the article already accounts for the nuances of those topics." Could you point me to what I'm missing? [Edit] I'm not making the case for negotiations, I'm a proponent of https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator
dlwdlw 9y ago
I always thought that the problem was about changing culture. The existing culture is too elitist and male oriented. Which isn't a problem in itself. But these are gatekeeping mechanisms that are gatekeeping what may become the ONLY good jobs in the future as everything becomes automated. It's not about proving your worth but looking out for people trying to cram into the departing boat. Whether there's enough space or if the boat can grow or even if the boat is as useful as it claims is another story. Goverments used to burn books not because peasants could read them but because of the lifeline it extended. An opportunity to challenge. Tech exponentially creates more and more knowledge requiring more and more specialization. It's not enough to throw scraps because difference can still grow if the scraps are small enough. Even though the rising tide lifts all boats, the difference in speed creates master/slave like riers. Certain societies and cultures place more emphasis on the responsibility of the powerful to create these lifelines. Others are more individualistic.

AckSyn 9y ago

And it's also been proven time and time again that the "gender pay gap" is a lie. A myth propagated by people who don't know how to read statistics and raw data, instead curating it to be something it isn't.

jorgemf 9y ago

Even if those facts are true, Google must have programs to make things fair. For same responsibilities same salary. You can say women are different than men or say they are exactly equals. Whatever is your position for the same job you must have the same salary. There shouldn't be any discussion here.

throwaway9853 9y ago
> For same responsibilities same salary. Why is that? If there is someone who is willing to take on those responsibilities for less pay, well that's just fine for the company and I think that people tend to forget that Google (and many other IT companies) is a for-profit company. For me at least, I've always seen salary negotiations as somewhat of a "right person at the right moment". If you're very lucky and the company really needs they will be willing to pay you more than what you would make at a different company on the same role, maybe more than what others are doing on the same role, just because you were there, at that time, when they were most in need. It may not always be like that, but think of it as demand/offer relationship. So regardless of gender/race it's the need of the company that comes first. Because as a employee you fulfill a need that the company has and you are being paid for that.
- jorgemf 9y ago
  Throwaway account created one hour ago? So you say that some who is starving if Africa we shouldn't care because he wasn't at the right place at the right moment? If you answer is that it is not the same case where do you put the line? Because your argument for getting things is basically luck.
  - throwaway9853 9y ago
    Yes and it's luck + skills. Because otherwise you wouldn't even be in that position in the first place. And what does Africa have to do with this? This was related to people working at Google and/or similar companies. So you're point is that we should give unqualified people jobs that they are clearly not meant for just because they are having a hard time? There are NGOs and state help for this. Of course if I'm having a hard time, I'd like someone to help me, but the first one to help me should be ME. I should do everything that is in my power to help myself, I shouldn't expect help from others. Don't know if that is what you were asking, but please stay on the topic of the discussion next time.
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      I want to balance the world and given the people what they deserve (same job = same salary). Try to fix the luck issue (either if you are starving in Africa or your salary at google is lower than the rest). I never said given unqualified people better jobs, I said give people in the same jobs the same salary (don't accuse me of not staying in the point when you don't understand my argument and them make a claim of something I didn't say, please). > I'm having a hard time, I'd like someone to help me, but the first one to help me should be ME. I should do everything that is in my power to help myself, I shouldn't expect help from others. You think everybody has the same opportunities in the world, which is not the case. Sometimes you need external help and you cannot do anything by yourself (maybe you are lucky and will never suffer this, but doesn't imply it doesn't happenn). I am asking the same question again, where do you put the line to take an action? For you it is clear the jobs are not an issue, if someone have a better salary with the same job position we shouldn't do anything. But when should we start taking action when the luck is harming people? I put the example of the person in africa starving as an extreme to try to help with my argument.
rplst8 9y ago
Why should same responsibilities = same salary? What if Joe and I and have the same responsibilities. Just to build working code. However, I can produce 100 working/tested lines of code a day and Joe can produce 150 lines of the same. Joe isn't entitled to a higher salary because he's more talented?
- jorgemf 9y ago
  lines of code as productivity measure is not the best example. Can you provide a better example? I can drop your example just with this: maybe your 100 working/tested lines produce more money for the company that the ones Joe wrote. Or the company needs the 250 lines of code to produce any money, without all of them your value for the company is 0.
  - forthefuture 9y ago
    The point is not that 150 lines is better than 100, it's that two people with the same job do not have the same productivity. Measure productivity by whatever metric you want, it's impossible for two people to do the exact same (amount / value) work. The only way to prove salaries are just is for every single person to have a different salary.
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      I agree with everything. But two points. First you cannot measure productivity per employee, it is incredible complicated. Second the difference is not going to be as big as you would expect to have huge differences in terms of salary (like 20% or more). So basically I think when two people with the same job positions have a very different salary you have a clear bias to give one more than the other. If they are really different in their productivity you might consider to fire the less productive or give the other person a better category (in the companies they have Junior I Junior II, Senior I, Senior II, etc).

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

"- Women don't negotiate" I've read the article a third time, I can't find how "the article already accounts for the nuances of those topics." Could you point me to what I'm missing? [Edit] I'm not making the case for negotiations, I'm a proponent of https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator https://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator

dlwdlw 9y ago

I always thought that the problem was about changing culture. The existing culture is too elitist and male oriented. Which isn't a problem in itself. But these are gatekeeping mechanisms that are gatekeeping what may become the ONLY good jobs in the future as everything becomes automated. It's not about proving your worth but looking out for people trying to cram into the departing boat. Whether there's enough space or if the boat can grow or even if the boat is as useful as it claims is another story. Goverments used to burn books not because peasants could read them but because of the lifeline it extended. An opportunity to challenge. Tech exponentially creates more and more knowledge requiring more and more specialization. It's not enough to throw scraps because difference can still grow if the scraps are small enough. Even though the rising tide lifts all boats, the difference in speed creates master/slave like riers. Certain societies and cultures place more emphasis on the responsibility of the powerful to create these lifelines. Others are more individualistic.