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I have seen the impact of mines like this first hand in many third world countries. It is not what you think. The people work horrendous hours for a tiny amoun

by grecy 9y ago

I have seen the impact of mines like this first hand in many third world countries. It is not what you think. The people work horrendous hours for a tiny amount of money - maybe 50 cents per day. At the end of the day they need to pay for food (no time to grow it) and pay for people to do things like make their shelter, clothes and transport (no time to do it for themselves). And so they have zero money left. They also work in horrible conditions and have a life expectancy of ~40. In many countries (Cameroon, Bolivia, Ivory Coast, Senegal, etc. etc.) I have seen where this crosses a line, and the locals simply choose not to work and just go back to growing their own food etc. Often they are happier and better off. Yes, this forces the wages to go up a tiny fraction, but in reality it is almost nothing, because there are always more naive country-folk coming in who think (as you do) "having a job is great" and they will "provide for their families" etc. By the time they figure out the whole thing is a terrible scam and quit, they already live in a slum in the city and can't go back. They are trapped. They probably even owe the mine some money or live in housing provided by the mine, so they are literally owned. Your idealized view of Capitalism is plain wrong. It does not happen like that in countries that do not have strict labor laws. (and even then, I would argue that many in the USA are working-slaves) Read Grapes of Wrath if you have not, it does a fantastic job of illustrating how people become trapped in extremely low-paying jobs with little to no choice.

ryan-allen 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath https://www.amazon.com/Grapes-Wrath-John-Steinbeck/dp/0143039431 https://www.amazon.com/Grapes-Wrath-John-Steinbeck/dp/014303...
kobeya 9y ago
You are wrong to think I'm not aware of the grisly circumstances under which many work, or that I've never been in despicable situations myself, or that I'm not familiar with the literary works of the communist-leaning John Steinbeck. I stand by my original statement.
- grecy 9y ago
  You are completely aware that working for pennies a day is pointless, shortens their lives, and many people would be better off not doing it. However, you stand by your original statement that you are glad they have a job. Color me confused.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    You don't get to compare reality against some imagined utopia where these mine jobs don't exist and everyone is fed and happy children are attending air conditioned schools with loving parents at home. You only get to compare against what would actually happen: the boys would become child soldiers because it beats hunger, and the girls will turn to prostitution. Now it is your turn to tell me this is a better outcome.
    - grecy 9y ago
      > Now it is your turn to tell me this is a better outcome I can tell you what I have seen, not anything at all imagined. I have seen hundreds of people quit their jobs in third world mines and other "western owned slave labor". So I can tell you first hand exactly the outcome that happens. I have seen those people go back to growing their own food, making and washing their own clothes, building their own houses etc. They go back to being members of their communities. They have massively more food and water than they need, and quickly have a lot of social time. Now they have time to spend with their family and friends. They don't have much money, so often they won't own a car, but they have plenty of food and water and shelter and family time. Their basic needs are met, and they have a good life. Actually, it virtually all of the 15 countries I have been to in West Africa I have met hundreds and hundreds (and seen thousands) of people that have massively more leisure time than anyone I know in the Western World, and on the whole I would say people are happier. Certainly they have no stress, no timelines and don't answer to any boss. They have no alarms, and don't care what time it is on any given day (or what day it is). This is not hollywood. This is not the world CNN tells you it is. Child soldiers and prostitution are not the only option, and in my experience in over 30 undeveloped countries, they are extremely rare.
totalZero 9y ago
I mean, I personally believe that there is a better option than to allow such mines to function, but if Apple can get away with holding the opposite opinion (as mentioned at the end of the article), then it probably deserves a response that doesn't attack one person's alleged view of Capitalism.

by grecy 9y ago

ryan-allen 9y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grapes_of_Wrath https://www.amazon.com/Grapes-Wrath-John-Steinbeck/dp/0143039431 https://www.amazon.com/Grapes-Wrath-John-Steinbeck/dp/014303...

kobeya 9y ago

You are wrong to think I'm not aware of the grisly circumstances under which many work, or that I've never been in despicable situations myself, or that I'm not familiar with the literary works of the communist-leaning John Steinbeck. I stand by my original statement.

grecy 9y ago
You are completely aware that working for pennies a day is pointless, shortens their lives, and many people would be better off not doing it. However, you stand by your original statement that you are glad they have a job. Color me confused.
- kobeya 9y ago
  You don't get to compare reality against some imagined utopia where these mine jobs don't exist and everyone is fed and happy children are attending air conditioned schools with loving parents at home. You only get to compare against what would actually happen: the boys would become child soldiers because it beats hunger, and the girls will turn to prostitution. Now it is your turn to tell me this is a better outcome.
  - grecy 9y ago
    > Now it is your turn to tell me this is a better outcome I can tell you what I have seen, not anything at all imagined. I have seen hundreds of people quit their jobs in third world mines and other "western owned slave labor". So I can tell you first hand exactly the outcome that happens. I have seen those people go back to growing their own food, making and washing their own clothes, building their own houses etc. They go back to being members of their communities. They have massively more food and water than they need, and quickly have a lot of social time. Now they have time to spend with their family and friends. They don't have much money, so often they won't own a car, but they have plenty of food and water and shelter and family time. Their basic needs are met, and they have a good life. Actually, it virtually all of the 15 countries I have been to in West Africa I have met hundreds and hundreds (and seen thousands) of people that have massively more leisure time than anyone I know in the Western World, and on the whole I would say people are happier. Certainly they have no stress, no timelines and don't answer to any boss. They have no alarms, and don't care what time it is on any given day (or what day it is). This is not hollywood. This is not the world CNN tells you it is. Child soldiers and prostitution are not the only option, and in my experience in over 30 undeveloped countries, they are extremely rare.

totalZero 9y ago

I mean, I personally believe that there is a better option than to allow such mines to function, but if Apple can get away with holding the opposite opinion (as mentioned at the end of the article), then it probably deserves a response that doesn't attack one person's alleged view of Capitalism.