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Agreed. A lot of things seem black and white on the surface. A lot of articles seem to imply "think of the children, make cobalt a conflict mineral!" but this w

Agreed. A lot of things seem black and white on the surface. A lot of articles seem to imply "think of the children, make cobalt a conflict mineral!" but this would have some insane destabilizing effects. The story has a lot of parallels to the story of the Harkin Bill. For those that don't know, I've paraphrased the Wikipedia article below: "Based on the Bangladesh Bureau of Statistics Labor Force Survey estimated there were about 5.7 million 10- to 14-year-old children engaged in Child labour in Bangladesh. This number may have been as high as 15 million children." ... "In 1993 employers in Bangladesh' ready-made garment (RMG) industry dismissed 50,000 children (c. 75 percent of child workers in the textile industry) out of fear of economic reprisals of the imminent passage of the Child Labor Deterrence Act" ... "The act which banned "importation to the United States of products which are manufactured or mined in whole or in part by children" would have resulted in the loss of lucrative American contracts. Its impact on Bangladesh's economy would have been significant as the export-oriented ready-made garment industry represents most of the country's exports." ... "UNICEF sent a team of investigators into Bangladesh to learn what came of the children who were dismissed from their factory jobs. UNICEF's 1997 State of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones, scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls eventually ended up in prostitution." I highly recommend everyone read the full Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Labor_Deterrence_Act - - - - For anyone who skipped to the bottom for a TL;DR: Bangladesh had millions of child laborers, US Senator Harkin proposed a bill that would ban importing products made with child labor, and Bangladesh's garment industry (which was most of the country's exports) fired 75% of the children. As a result most children found worse work: crushing stones, scavenging trash, and prostitution.

andrepd 9y ago
Then the problem lies with the employers, the government, the system. Not with someone who tried to put pressure on the right side.
- westmeal 9y ago
  I think he was trying to point out that even if you are putting pressure on the right side unfortunate side effects can still be seen. Not that it's anyone's particular fault.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    If you apply pressure and bad things happen unilaterally as a result of that pressure, yes it is your fault. Cause and effect, whether you intended for it or not. Denying that is simply not taking responsibility for your actions.
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      Indeed. Good intentions do not justify means. You cannot escape responsibility of the bad consequences of your actions, even if you say the consequences are "unwanted", not what you intended. Particularly if you know those consequences were going to happen. "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." - economist Joan Robinson, 1962
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  > Then the problem lies with the employers, the > government, the system. I see it differently. There is insufficient economic activity to employ these people. Since the government is funded by economic activity (and taxing it) they are not in a position to create a welfare system. Because employers are not competitive if they raise prices while others keep their prices low, they aren't in a position to pay additional wages. Because the system relies on actual economic activity in order for capital to flow, and they have disabled a chunk of that economy by fiat (no child workers) they have essentially removed from the economy jobs for those children. You can do what the Chinese did and essentially print money to pay people for public works jobs which then enables more non-subsidized economic activity, but that boot strapping is difficult and needs you to start with a stable government base.
  - 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
eecc 9y ago
Ok so should we supinely accept that 1%-ers are benefactors because they're keeping children off the street by making them work? Sorry but: fuck that. If a country is competitive because it's essentially engaging in slavery you just increase pressure, up to blockade and sanctions. That is, until they start taxing business enough to pay for proper public schooling, housing and sanitation. This race to the bottom bullshit has got to stop.
- stuaxo 9y ago
  When child labour was stopped in the mills in the UK, there were similar arguments made about how we shouldn't curb the free market.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Here is Engel's account of working conditions for children in UK mines in the early 19th century: http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm
- cannonpr 9y ago
  I tend to feel that emotionally charged language shows part of the problem preventing us from resolving these things. Morality is as much a social science as many things, however without taking into account a pretty cold analysis of why we are in this situation to begin with you can't solve it. Certainly naive calls for blockades and sanctions won't solve it. Since the people who would implement those sanctions are probably also the people benefiting from and causing the situation in those countries to begin with.
- infinite8s 9y ago
  It's not 1%, it's the 10% of global population (the developed world) that benefits. Those cheap clothes you got your kids from Gap, they were probably made by similarly aged kids in Bangladesh.
- strken 9y ago
  Something hard, complicated, and expensive might work: say, a ratcheting minimum age requirement, stipulations that exporters provide documentation on the working conditions at all mines they buy from, extensive investment in the mines, and foreign aid to get early-childhood schools set up with local teachers. Unfortunately, providing an incomplete or imperfect solution to a problem automatically makes everyone blame you for that problem, even when you provably helped fix it[0]. Anyone who helps fix the problem of child labour by slowly improving working conditions or by brokering a compromise will be blamed for anything and everything remotely connected to it. [0] https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...
lawless123 9y ago
Or Maybe if the factory hired and fairly paid adults they could afford to look after their children...
cabalamat 9y ago
> UNICEF's 1997 State of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones, scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls eventually ended up in prostitution. I doubt if anyone economically literate was surprised by this.
nvarsj 9y ago
The solution is for the state / government / textile industry to provide education and stipends for those children, not keep them enslaved. What the wiki article leaves out is that happened to some extent after the UNICEF investigation (see https://www.unicef.org/sowc97/download/sow2of2.pdf https://www.unicef.org/sowc97/download/sow2of2.pdf panel 12).

andrepd 9y ago

Then the problem lies with the employers, the government, the system. Not with someone who tried to put pressure on the right side.

westmeal 9y ago
I think he was trying to point out that even if you are putting pressure on the right side unfortunate side effects can still be seen. Not that it's anyone's particular fault.
- kobeya 9y ago
  If you apply pressure and bad things happen unilaterally as a result of that pressure, yes it is your fault. Cause and effect, whether you intended for it or not. Denying that is simply not taking responsibility for your actions.
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    Indeed. Good intentions do not justify means. You cannot escape responsibility of the bad consequences of your actions, even if you say the consequences are "unwanted", not what you intended. Particularly if you know those consequences were going to happen. "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." - economist Joan Robinson, 1962
ChuckMcM 9y ago
> Then the problem lies with the employers, the > government, the system. I see it differently. There is insufficient economic activity to employ these people. Since the government is funded by economic activity (and taxing it) they are not in a position to create a welfare system. Because employers are not competitive if they raise prices while others keep their prices low, they aren't in a position to pay additional wages. Because the system relies on actual economic activity in order for capital to flow, and they have disabled a chunk of that economy by fiat (no child workers) they have essentially removed from the economy jobs for those children. You can do what the Chinese did and essentially print money to pay people for public works jobs which then enables more non-subsidized economic activity, but that boot strapping is difficult and needs you to start with a stable government base.
- 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

eecc 9y ago

Ok so should we supinely accept that 1%-ers are benefactors because they're keeping children off the street by making them work? Sorry but: fuck that. If a country is competitive because it's essentially engaging in slavery you just increase pressure, up to blockade and sanctions. That is, until they start taxing business enough to pay for proper public schooling, housing and sanitation. This race to the bottom bullshit has got to stop.

stuaxo 9y ago
When child labour was stopped in the mills in the UK, there were similar arguments made about how we shouldn't curb the free market.
- arethuza 9y ago
  Here is Engel's account of working conditions for children in UK mines in the early 19th century: http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/factmine/childmin.htm
cannonpr 9y ago
I tend to feel that emotionally charged language shows part of the problem preventing us from resolving these things. Morality is as much a social science as many things, however without taking into account a pretty cold analysis of why we are in this situation to begin with you can't solve it. Certainly naive calls for blockades and sanctions won't solve it. Since the people who would implement those sanctions are probably also the people benefiting from and causing the situation in those countries to begin with.
infinite8s 9y ago
It's not 1%, it's the 10% of global population (the developed world) that benefits. Those cheap clothes you got your kids from Gap, they were probably made by similarly aged kids in Bangladesh.
strken 9y ago
Something hard, complicated, and expensive might work: say, a ratcheting minimum age requirement, stipulations that exporters provide documentation on the working conditions at all mines they buy from, extensive investment in the mines, and foreign aid to get early-childhood schools set up with local teachers. Unfortunately, providing an incomplete or imperfect solution to a problem automatically makes everyone blame you for that problem, even when you provably helped fix it[0]. Anyone who helps fix the problem of child labour by slowly improving working conditions or by brokering a compromise will be blamed for anything and everything remotely connected to it. [0] https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...

lawless123 9y ago

Or Maybe if the factory hired and fairly paid adults they could afford to look after their children...

cabalamat 9y ago

> UNICEF's 1997 State of the World's Children report confirmed that most of the children found themselves in much more deplorable situations, such as crushing stones, scavenging through trash dumps, and begging on the streets. Many of the girls eventually ended up in prostitution. I doubt if anyone economically literate was surprised by this.

nvarsj 9y ago

The solution is for the state / government / textile industry to provide education and stipends for those children, not keep them enslaved. What the wiki article leaves out is that happened to some extent after the UNICEF investigation (see https://www.unicef.org/sowc97/download/sow2of2.pdf https://www.unicef.org/sowc97/download/sow2of2.pdf panel 12).