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> it's a constant indication that "you're not welcome here" Maybe the software industry can be more inviting or attractive to different types of people, but I

> it's a constant indication that "you're not welcome here" Maybe the software industry can be more inviting or attractive to different types of people, but I don't think there is an agenda by computer folk to exclude others or make people feel un-welcomed. I think the "geek" culture is simply unattractive to most girls (yes, I'm assuming girls are less geeky). The question is "how to make it more attractive", not "how to make it less alienating". Edit: tell me why you disagree.

munin 9y ago
I disagree because I know a lot of geeky women who don't like geek culture because it is hostile to women. In my life, I haven't noticed a difference in gender when it comes to someone being a "geek" or not. I'm not sure how to gather broader evidence really, though F/M ratios in hard sciences requiring quite a lot of "geek" are much higher than in computer science.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  If you haven't noticed a difference in m/f ratio of geeks, then how can you say geek culture us hostile to women? Assuming you think all male geeks are hostile to women, wouldn't it just be half of the culture that is hostile? idk, something about "half of geeks culture is women" and "geek culture is hostile to women" doesn't seem like a good argument to me.
  - munin 9y ago
    The women geeks I know keep separate from geek culture, and I only know them due to luck or circumstance. So they are women geeks, but not part of geek culture, if that makes sense.
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      Then are they really geeks or just have geek tendencies? Geekdom is a blood pact that one carries with them wherever they go. There's a lot of "us vs. them" mentality, especially in more introverted circles that feel as though normal society is not for them and they will never fit in. This hostility is aimed at anyone who, to use their vernacular, is a normie. Someone that, as they see it, has had the luck to be able to fit in to the molds society demanded of them, is not "one of them." This includes men, specifically the "high-status," attractive, promiscuous, and athletic men. As well as normal women, who by the real life random number generator we call chance, are a much greater portion of their gender than men. This is one possible reason it may seem like there is large hostility targeted specifically at women. Women, using only the frequent amount of stories I've heard, are known for their affinity to want to insert themselves into groups they don't belong in and feel like a great injustice has been done upon them by this. There are certain groups of people that your average woman will never be able to fit in, no matter how much activism she engages in. To tie these two paragraphs together, the largest problems I've seen arise of clashes between geeks and normies, are people who want to "be part" of the group in name, but don't want to be part of the group in lifestyle and essence. These groups are very welcoming to anyone who shows similarity to their members, but like most groups of people, will not tolerate those who wish to disrupt their bubble and way of being. It's like joining a smoker's support group, but coming in and chain smoking in everyone's faces. Then declaring that the hostility you receive is unwarranted. That it is them who should change their ways, not the malefactor.
      - anon32763 9y ago
        Note that it is a particularly cruel fate to be unattractive, low status, while being intelligent enough to not only fully comprehend what they are missing but also to know the implacable foes of probability and physics that put them there. Geeks have the rawest quadrant of the distribution. We finally carved out an enclave around the 80s where we could have a stable equilibrium with the rest of society, trading our specialized skills for goods at an arms length. But the normies greed and avrice knows no bounds. They burst into our very halls to throw us back out into the cold night. They demand we tithe all the fruits of our labours in recognition of the "natural order". They would make us beggars in our own kingdom. Geeks are not aggressors in any us vs them sorting match. The hostility flows endlessly in one direction -- downhill -- from the haves to all the have-nots. Meet us at the river fork every fall to trade, but do not harvest our gardens, hunt our animals, or cut down our homes for your firewood. Stay in your domain normie and we will stay in ours.
braindouche 9y ago
I disagree by agreeing, sort of. Geekspace is alienating, but with some notable exceptions I don't believe it's on purpose. I know loads of amazing girl geeks (we are mighty), and my anecdotal observations suggest that there might be a higher geek-to-normy ratio among people of color than there is among whites. And yet, we tend to go play among ourselves, because the white male geeks can get all weird when we try to play with them. Not always. Not everyone. Just sometimes. Mostly not on purpose, and mostly because they don't have any practice playing with girls or people of color in the geekspace. Enough that it's not always worth doing the work of making the white male geeks be used to having girls and people of color around because we just want to go play our geeky reindeer games.

munin 9y ago

I disagree because I know a lot of geeky women who don't like geek culture because it is hostile to women. In my life, I haven't noticed a difference in gender when it comes to someone being a "geek" or not. I'm not sure how to gather broader evidence really, though F/M ratios in hard sciences requiring quite a lot of "geek" are much higher than in computer science.

devmunchies 9y ago
If you haven't noticed a difference in m/f ratio of geeks, then how can you say geek culture us hostile to women? Assuming you think all male geeks are hostile to women, wouldn't it just be half of the culture that is hostile? idk, something about "half of geeks culture is women" and "geek culture is hostile to women" doesn't seem like a good argument to me.
- munin 9y ago
  The women geeks I know keep separate from geek culture, and I only know them due to luck or circumstance. So they are women geeks, but not part of geek culture, if that makes sense.
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    Then are they really geeks or just have geek tendencies? Geekdom is a blood pact that one carries with them wherever they go. There's a lot of "us vs. them" mentality, especially in more introverted circles that feel as though normal society is not for them and they will never fit in. This hostility is aimed at anyone who, to use their vernacular, is a normie. Someone that, as they see it, has had the luck to be able to fit in to the molds society demanded of them, is not "one of them." This includes men, specifically the "high-status," attractive, promiscuous, and athletic men. As well as normal women, who by the real life random number generator we call chance, are a much greater portion of their gender than men. This is one possible reason it may seem like there is large hostility targeted specifically at women. Women, using only the frequent amount of stories I've heard, are known for their affinity to want to insert themselves into groups they don't belong in and feel like a great injustice has been done upon them by this. There are certain groups of people that your average woman will never be able to fit in, no matter how much activism she engages in. To tie these two paragraphs together, the largest problems I've seen arise of clashes between geeks and normies, are people who want to "be part" of the group in name, but don't want to be part of the group in lifestyle and essence. These groups are very welcoming to anyone who shows similarity to their members, but like most groups of people, will not tolerate those who wish to disrupt their bubble and way of being. It's like joining a smoker's support group, but coming in and chain smoking in everyone's faces. Then declaring that the hostility you receive is unwarranted. That it is them who should change their ways, not the malefactor.
    - anon32763 9y ago
      Note that it is a particularly cruel fate to be unattractive, low status, while being intelligent enough to not only fully comprehend what they are missing but also to know the implacable foes of probability and physics that put them there. Geeks have the rawest quadrant of the distribution. We finally carved out an enclave around the 80s where we could have a stable equilibrium with the rest of society, trading our specialized skills for goods at an arms length. But the normies greed and avrice knows no bounds. They burst into our very halls to throw us back out into the cold night. They demand we tithe all the fruits of our labours in recognition of the "natural order". They would make us beggars in our own kingdom. Geeks are not aggressors in any us vs them sorting match. The hostility flows endlessly in one direction -- downhill -- from the haves to all the have-nots. Meet us at the river fork every fall to trade, but do not harvest our gardens, hunt our animals, or cut down our homes for your firewood. Stay in your domain normie and we will stay in ours.

braindouche 9y ago

I disagree by agreeing, sort of. Geekspace is alienating, but with some notable exceptions I don't believe it's on purpose. I know loads of amazing girl geeks (we are mighty), and my anecdotal observations suggest that there might be a higher geek-to-normy ratio among people of color than there is among whites. And yet, we tend to go play among ourselves, because the white male geeks can get all weird when we try to play with them. Not always. Not everyone. Just sometimes. Mostly not on purpose, and mostly because they don't have any practice playing with girls or people of color in the geekspace. Enough that it's not always worth doing the work of making the white male geeks be used to having girls and people of color around because we just want to go play our geeky reindeer games.