6 ms·

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even

by taysic 9y ago

According to the article some of the things that will "and will get you socially lambasted" "Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)" "Prostitution is sexist against women" etc Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion that's not the work environment. I'm a lady and I honestly would feel uncomfortable if people were discussing these things at work. I really could not care less what other people's opinions are on these issues but I know I'm there to do my job as best as I can no get siderailed into lengthy controversial and highly likely uncomfortable discussions. Suggesting that Google needs to be a place to comfortably voice off your random ideas is pretty irrational. It really doesn't. Anyway, what does that even look like tangibly? Unprofessional... uncomfortable. It would not result in people agreeing with each other more just becoming less likely to like one another.

davemp 9y ago
You have a very valid point, but it's not exactly the issue at hand. - The memo was posted in an opt-in group for these types of discussions. - The issue is very lopsided. I have personally never heard of someone being fired over saying much more offensive statements in the other direction (ie: men are dense / white people ruin everthing / etc). I would have no problem with a zero tolerance policy as long as it were evenly enforced.
- taysic 9y ago
  Google must be a pretty interesting place to work in with an opt in group for these types of discussions. I guess that could be good but it seems like their informality might be coming to bite them. Maybe I've just been exceptionally good at picking professional places to work at but I've never heard comments like the ones you've mentioned. Why not go to HR? Those are pretty strong statements. My understanding is our harassment laws are pretty strong. During a sexual harassment compliance training at one of my companies, I learned that the fastest growing sexual harassment cases are men suing men. (If I remember it correctly) for things like feeling pressured to have acted more manly. And they win. The laws in this country are incredible and add enormously to the productivity we have in our companies.
KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
One thing I enjoy about working in tech is having the opportunity to discuss things other than work during breaks. We often spend more waking hours with our colleagues than our friends and family, forming strong bonds and friendships. I've been lucky enough to work with intelligent people originating from many parts of the world, and have enjoyed stimulating discussions that include geo-political and social issues. While there are a myriad of reasons why one could feel bad about facing a day in the office, I personally find sexism and harassment to be particularly heinous, and indicates weakness of character more than a lack of ability. Something I worry about is the possibility of a work environment where the free discussion and conversation I mentioned above is inhibited. Especially one in which "acceptable" conversation is not politically neutral, but instead favouring progressive viewpoints exclusively.
- taysic 9y ago
  I hear you. That sounds very nice, but a work environment can simply never be the same as hanging out with a friend over lunch. There needs to be some way to discourage harassment and promote a positive, friendly work environment that values people for their skill set rather than other given irrelevant attributes. Free discussion is just not appropriate at a work place - the line must be drawn somewhere and usually that means veering towards acting professional. There is ample opportunity to be yourself fully outside of this context. Nothing has been more positive to me as a woman in tech than working in environments with professionalism. I got to focus on what I love to do, what I am best at. It works in the interest of companies too.
  - chrisco255 9y ago
    Professionalism itself is an evolving standard and a moving target. It varies wildly between companies, industries, cultures, and even regions within the United States. Professionalism used to mean 9-6PM M-F work with suit and tie or formal dress and strong hierarchical organizations. In some industries it still means that. The startup tech industry was sort of founded on a rebellious disregard for old standards of professionalism with flatter hierarchies. At a company like Google, it appears that discussion on internal forums is actually an internal cultural virtue. Google's innovation and evolution as a company has probably depended on that very openness that we the general public are getting a peek into through these leaks. An article I read on Wired showed images of these discussions. Apparently very progressive viewpoints are welcomed on the internal channels there. It would seem that any viewpoints that run counter to that worldview, however, are gradually being eradicated by shaming and firing those with alternative views. What's unfortunate is that with the actions that have been taken...I think everyone loses. Fuel has only been added to this fire on both sides.
RealityNow 9y ago
That was simply a list of topics that PC culture has deemed indisputable and heresy to even question. The topic of whether or not they're appropriate in a work environment is a whole different discussion. The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarizes my thoughts.
- taysic 9y ago
  They appear completely related to what is heresy to discuss at Google. The section starts off with "Some takeaways from this whole fiasco" "Here are some of those politically correct assertions that take on almost religious-like qualities..." And thus appear to be completely linked to the topic of the Google "fiasco". Very confusing way to present the article if they are not relevant. College is a very different place than a workplace. I am not required to interact with anyone on my college campus. Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes. The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what? I only read the first part - and I'm no expert on these topics but I haven't experienced any exceptionalism within this profession as a woman. To the contrary, my code is out there in the open ready for scrutiny all the time. I truly believe this is a meritocratic profession. My understanding is that companies aim to hire equally qualified workers from more backgrounds of diversity. Even better, they have an economic incentive to do so. Many of the time the people writing these things are looking for something to complain about. I haven't worked at Google but I haven't experienced this to be imbalanced in the way it's being portrayed. I guess you can say the memo was put out there, and a discussion was had.
  - RealityNow 9y ago
    Apologies if the presentation was unclear, will see if I can make that clearer. > Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I prefer workplaces, or any environment for that matter, where we all respect each other enough to be open to the discussion of any topic and not easily offended over stupid meaningless jokes. That does not mean that one has to share their political beliefs or be pestered to engage in controversial debate - but a culture where everyone has to watch out for every little thing they say because any non-PC mark could be misconstrued and used as grounds for firing simply because someone deemed it offensive is intellectually hostile, unhealthy, and not the type of environment I want to be in. > The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what? That's not why the author is upset. The author got fired.

by taysic 9y ago

davemp 9y ago

You have a very valid point, but it's not exactly the issue at hand. - The memo was posted in an opt-in group for these types of discussions. - The issue is very lopsided. I have personally never heard of someone being fired over saying much more offensive statements in the other direction (ie: men are dense / white people ruin everthing / etc). I would have no problem with a zero tolerance policy as long as it were evenly enforced.

taysic 9y ago
Google must be a pretty interesting place to work in with an opt in group for these types of discussions. I guess that could be good but it seems like their informality might be coming to bite them. Maybe I've just been exceptionally good at picking professional places to work at but I've never heard comments like the ones you've mentioned. Why not go to HR? Those are pretty strong statements. My understanding is our harassment laws are pretty strong. During a sexual harassment compliance training at one of my companies, I learned that the fastest growing sexual harassment cases are men suing men. (If I remember it correctly) for things like feeling pressured to have acted more manly. And they win. The laws in this country are incredible and add enormously to the productivity we have in our companies.

KhanMahGretsch 9y ago

One thing I enjoy about working in tech is having the opportunity to discuss things other than work during breaks. We often spend more waking hours with our colleagues than our friends and family, forming strong bonds and friendships. I've been lucky enough to work with intelligent people originating from many parts of the world, and have enjoyed stimulating discussions that include geo-political and social issues. While there are a myriad of reasons why one could feel bad about facing a day in the office, I personally find sexism and harassment to be particularly heinous, and indicates weakness of character more than a lack of ability. Something I worry about is the possibility of a work environment where the free discussion and conversation I mentioned above is inhibited. Especially one in which "acceptable" conversation is not politically neutral, but instead favouring progressive viewpoints exclusively.

taysic 9y ago
I hear you. That sounds very nice, but a work environment can simply never be the same as hanging out with a friend over lunch. There needs to be some way to discourage harassment and promote a positive, friendly work environment that values people for their skill set rather than other given irrelevant attributes. Free discussion is just not appropriate at a work place - the line must be drawn somewhere and usually that means veering towards acting professional. There is ample opportunity to be yourself fully outside of this context. Nothing has been more positive to me as a woman in tech than working in environments with professionalism. I got to focus on what I love to do, what I am best at. It works in the interest of companies too.
- chrisco255 9y ago
  Professionalism itself is an evolving standard and a moving target. It varies wildly between companies, industries, cultures, and even regions within the United States. Professionalism used to mean 9-6PM M-F work with suit and tie or formal dress and strong hierarchical organizations. In some industries it still means that. The startup tech industry was sort of founded on a rebellious disregard for old standards of professionalism with flatter hierarchies. At a company like Google, it appears that discussion on internal forums is actually an internal cultural virtue. Google's innovation and evolution as a company has probably depended on that very openness that we the general public are getting a peek into through these leaks. An article I read on Wired showed images of these discussions. Apparently very progressive viewpoints are welcomed on the internal channels there. It would seem that any viewpoints that run counter to that worldview, however, are gradually being eradicated by shaming and firing those with alternative views. What's unfortunate is that with the actions that have been taken...I think everyone loses. Fuel has only been added to this fire on both sides.

RealityNow 9y ago

That was simply a list of topics that PC culture has deemed indisputable and heresy to even question. The topic of whether or not they're appropriate in a work environment is a whole different discussion. The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarizes my thoughts.

taysic 9y ago
They appear completely related to what is heresy to discuss at Google. The section starts off with "Some takeaways from this whole fiasco" "Here are some of those politically correct assertions that take on almost religious-like qualities..." And thus appear to be completely linked to the topic of the Google "fiasco". Very confusing way to present the article if they are not relevant. College is a very different place than a workplace. I am not required to interact with anyone on my college campus. Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes. The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what? I only read the first part - and I'm no expert on these topics but I haven't experienced any exceptionalism within this profession as a woman. To the contrary, my code is out there in the open ready for scrutiny all the time. I truly believe this is a meritocratic profession. My understanding is that companies aim to hire equally qualified workers from more backgrounds of diversity. Even better, they have an economic incentive to do so. Many of the time the people writing these things are looking for something to complain about. I haven't worked at Google but I haven't experienced this to be imbalanced in the way it's being portrayed. I guess you can say the memo was put out there, and a discussion was had.
- RealityNow 9y ago
  Apologies if the presentation was unclear, will see if I can make that clearer. > Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I prefer workplaces, or any environment for that matter, where we all respect each other enough to be open to the discussion of any topic and not easily offended over stupid meaningless jokes. That does not mean that one has to share their political beliefs or be pestered to engage in controversial debate - but a culture where everyone has to watch out for every little thing they say because any non-PC mark could be misconstrued and used as grounds for firing simply because someone deemed it offensive is intellectually hostile, unhealthy, and not the type of environment I want to be in. > The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what? That's not why the author is upset. The author got fired.