8 ms·

When Beethoven Met Goethe

95 points by tintinnabula 9y ago

spodek 9y ago
The population then was about 1 billion. With 7.6 billion people, greater access to education, and more travel, how many meetings of comparable people happen today?
- flexie 9y ago
  Maybe the amount of geniuses grew proportionately, maybe there are more geniuses per billion capita today. My guess is that there are vastly more geniuses today but that they are spread out more geographically and to many more types of art. Today, maybe Beethoven would be making techno in Rotterdam. Goethe might be making movies in Hollywood or computer games in Copenhagen. Who knows.
  - theoh 9y ago
    Still, culture operates on a "hubs and authorities" basis -- there are people whose job it is to be hubs (curators, publishers, music programmers and promoters) and people who become known for their genius ("authorities"). The interdisciplinary issue is interesting. There's probably enough of it happening to offset fragmentation of culture into specialisations.
  - lkozma 9y ago
    Funny that you don't even consider the third alternative of there being _less_ per billion capita today.
- G2kyd7 9y ago
  You could argue about the dialectics of modern technology - did earlier geniuses appear because of the lack of it? What would Einstein have achieved with access to computers? Maybe he would have never relied on his all-important thought experiments...
- riku_iki 9y ago
  Maybe it is just interests of people shifted from classic music and philosophy to other topics. But I found contemporary piano music good in my taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maJOI3QMu0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maJOI3QMu0
G2kyd7 9y ago
This was arguably the golden age of German culture. Even if Kant just passed away, you had philosophers such as Hegel in Berlin, Fichte, Schelling living at the same time and the younger Schopenhauer actually meeting with Goethe, although that did not turn out well. At that time, Romanticism was taking off in Germany, after the Weimarer Klassik around Goethe, Schiller and people such as Herder and Wieland was coming to an end. Goethe had a reputation of protecting his status and suppressing other talented artists. It should also be said that Beethoven's ninth uses text from the Ode to Joy, from Schiller, who was a friend of Goethe and one of the few he might have seen as equals. Overall, a giant, intricate network of historical figures.
- dkural 9y ago
  German culture was going strong until the purges under Fascism began - in philosophy, art, mathematics, physics & other sciences. One of the shocking aspects of the rising of Fascism was that it happened in an intellectually fertile environment with many reasonable people. It is tempting to try to spot a gradual decline in German culture, but that was not the case. It was on the rise until Hitler physically liquidated the intelligentsia.
  - kbart 9y ago
    There were too few intelligent people to make a difference and standing out would only mean personal sacrifice without much overall impact. Smart people usually know when it's better to stay silent.. Dangerous parallels can be drawn to today's situation in many leading countries.
  - differonzi 9y ago
    It isn't entirely shocking. Intellectually fertile doesn't equal morally or ethically predictable. Well, maybe there are studies which link politics and IQ, but political leanings aren't always great predictors of ethics/morals in action. Edit: And perhaps I'm misconstruing your statement, which seems to have more to do with the decline in German culture after the purges rather than what led to the purges.
  - G2kyd7 9y ago
xgk 9y ago
Beethoven would be making techno Why? Given that making techno, or modern pop music in general, is basically trivial. Just spin up Ableton, press a few buttons ... boom, 10 minutes later you've got a competitive techno-track that doesn't sound all that different (apart from mastering maybe) from what's being played in the clubs. There is no art left in pop-music -- trivial and generic. A genius would be horrified by the trivial repitition of the same that is modern pop-music.
- sordina 9y ago
  Link to your tracks?
  - xgk 9y ago
    Why would a "link" be interesting or relevant? My point that modern pop-music is extremely generic stands/falls whether I have "tracks" or not. It's hard to deny that modern pop-music is to an extremely good approximation all in the 4/4 time signature for example, so to an extremely good approximation all modern pop-music has less rhythmic variety e.g. many/most single classical pieces.
  - kruhft 9y ago
    http://n1m.co/kruhft http://n1m.co/kruhft
- theoh 9y ago
  Come on, art is not measured by how complex or technically intricate it is. It's a matter of feeling and atmosphere. Techno is a sensibility and a culture, not a celebration of individual masterpieces by "geniuses".
  - xgk 9y ago
    That is a controversial point and depends on your concept of art. There are conceptions of art where novelty is an integral part of the very definition of artwork. I agree that pop-music is precisely about creating "feeling and atmosphere", but I would extend it by saying: "easily, quicly and widely accessible shared feeling and atmosphere". And it is precisely this requirement of easy/quick access to the shared feeling and atmosphere that makes it important for pop-music to be conventional, to be repetition of previous pop-music. Surprise is anti-thetical to the purpose of pop-music. Pop-music is acoustic wall-paper that is intended reliably to create a certain atmosphere. You can gauge the conventional nature of pop-music from the fact that you can reliably determine the genre (e.g. House/Techno, Rap, Metal, Folk etc) by sub-1-second snippets. All successful genres have signature sounds for enabling quick identification. You can think of this as an aural version of branding. This is very well-known by professional producers, musicians and music marketing.
meri_dian 9y ago
If anyone is curious about Beethoven's life, I can recommend and excellent and relatively recently published biography: 'Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph', by Jan Swafford. We see figures like Beethoven and Goethe as geniuses themselves, but the 18th century conception of 'genius' was not of a person, but of a sort of holy spirit that blessed an individual with great abilities, while remaining separate from that person. So prior to Romantics of the 19th century taking hold of the concept of genius and re-purposing it into the one we're familiar with today, one would not speak of someone being a genius, but being graced with genius. Genius was not who they were, but something external to them that they possessed. It's a subtle but interesting difference.
- G2kyd7 9y ago
  Yes, also different cultures would apply it to different roles. In Germany I believe, only artists, could have genius, whereas in France and England this could apply to politicians and other groups as well. Goethe was a actually part of the early "Geniekult".
- roceasta 9y ago
  The word 'spirit' is vague but the older idea is more accurate than the modern assumption that geniuses are merely 'smart' above a certain threshold. In reality creative genius expresses itself through those who love truth to their core and who follow only their inner motivations. These qualities are sometimes abandoned which results in a fall and a loss of former abilities. http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-endogenous-personality-its.html http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-endoge...
- jly 9y ago
  Another Beethoven biography for the beginner that I can recommend is 'Beethoven: The Music and the Life' by Lewis Lockwood. This one does a good treatment on his life while also weaving in relevant analysis of his music for the layperson with some musical background. It's a great introduction to both aspects of his life for the non-serious musician and will give you a much greater appreciation for his work.
- colanderman 9y ago
gmarx 9y ago
I love the description Goethe provides of Beethoven's personality. We've all met that guy, extremely talented, contempt for the world which you kind of admire but seriously dude could you give it a rest? I'm trying to enjoy myself...people are always the same. only the technology changes
cafard 9y ago
"No doubt Beethoven chided Goethe along these lines, and the most revered writer in the land would not have taken kindly to any sort of dressing down, friendly or otherwise." No doubt? I'd say no evidence.

95 points by tintinnabula 9y ago

The population then was about 1 billion. With 7.6 billion people, greater access to education, and more travel, how many meetings of comparable people happen today?

flexie 9y ago
Maybe the amount of geniuses grew proportionately, maybe there are more geniuses per billion capita today. My guess is that there are vastly more geniuses today but that they are spread out more geographically and to many more types of art. Today, maybe Beethoven would be making techno in Rotterdam. Goethe might be making movies in Hollywood or computer games in Copenhagen. Who knows.
- theoh 9y ago
  Still, culture operates on a "hubs and authorities" basis -- there are people whose job it is to be hubs (curators, publishers, music programmers and promoters) and people who become known for their genius ("authorities"). The interdisciplinary issue is interesting. There's probably enough of it happening to offset fragmentation of culture into specialisations.
- lkozma 9y ago
  Funny that you don't even consider the third alternative of there being _less_ per billion capita today.
G2kyd7 9y ago
You could argue about the dialectics of modern technology - did earlier geniuses appear because of the lack of it? What would Einstein have achieved with access to computers? Maybe he would have never relied on his all-important thought experiments...
riku_iki 9y ago
Maybe it is just interests of people shifted from classic music and philosophy to other topics. But I found contemporary piano music good in my taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maJOI3QMu0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maJOI3QMu0

G2kyd7 9y ago

This was arguably the golden age of German culture. Even if Kant just passed away, you had philosophers such as Hegel in Berlin, Fichte, Schelling living at the same time and the younger Schopenhauer actually meeting with Goethe, although that did not turn out well. At that time, Romanticism was taking off in Germany, after the Weimarer Klassik around Goethe, Schiller and people such as Herder and Wieland was coming to an end. Goethe had a reputation of protecting his status and suppressing other talented artists. It should also be said that Beethoven's ninth uses text from the Ode to Joy, from Schiller, who was a friend of Goethe and one of the few he might have seen as equals. Overall, a giant, intricate network of historical figures.

dkural 9y ago
German culture was going strong until the purges under Fascism began - in philosophy, art, mathematics, physics & other sciences. One of the shocking aspects of the rising of Fascism was that it happened in an intellectually fertile environment with many reasonable people. It is tempting to try to spot a gradual decline in German culture, but that was not the case. It was on the rise until Hitler physically liquidated the intelligentsia.
- kbart 9y ago
  There were too few intelligent people to make a difference and standing out would only mean personal sacrifice without much overall impact. Smart people usually know when it's better to stay silent.. Dangerous parallels can be drawn to today's situation in many leading countries.
- differonzi 9y ago
  It isn't entirely shocking. Intellectually fertile doesn't equal morally or ethically predictable. Well, maybe there are studies which link politics and IQ, but political leanings aren't always great predictors of ethics/morals in action. Edit: And perhaps I'm misconstruing your statement, which seems to have more to do with the decline in German culture after the purges rather than what led to the purges.
- G2kyd7 9y ago

xgk 9y ago

Beethoven would be making techno Why? Given that making techno, or modern pop music in general, is basically trivial. Just spin up Ableton, press a few buttons ... boom, 10 minutes later you've got a competitive techno-track that doesn't sound all that different (apart from mastering maybe) from what's being played in the clubs. There is no art left in pop-music -- trivial and generic. A genius would be horrified by the trivial repitition of the same that is modern pop-music.

sordina 9y ago
Link to your tracks?
- xgk 9y ago
  Why would a "link" be interesting or relevant? My point that modern pop-music is extremely generic stands/falls whether I have "tracks" or not. It's hard to deny that modern pop-music is to an extremely good approximation all in the 4/4 time signature for example, so to an extremely good approximation all modern pop-music has less rhythmic variety e.g. many/most single classical pieces.
- kruhft 9y ago
  http://n1m.co/kruhft http://n1m.co/kruhft
theoh 9y ago
Come on, art is not measured by how complex or technically intricate it is. It's a matter of feeling and atmosphere. Techno is a sensibility and a culture, not a celebration of individual masterpieces by "geniuses".
- xgk 9y ago
  That is a controversial point and depends on your concept of art. There are conceptions of art where novelty is an integral part of the very definition of artwork. I agree that pop-music is precisely about creating "feeling and atmosphere", but I would extend it by saying: "easily, quicly and widely accessible shared feeling and atmosphere". And it is precisely this requirement of easy/quick access to the shared feeling and atmosphere that makes it important for pop-music to be conventional, to be repetition of previous pop-music. Surprise is anti-thetical to the purpose of pop-music. Pop-music is acoustic wall-paper that is intended reliably to create a certain atmosphere. You can gauge the conventional nature of pop-music from the fact that you can reliably determine the genre (e.g. House/Techno, Rap, Metal, Folk etc) by sub-1-second snippets. All successful genres have signature sounds for enabling quick identification. You can think of this as an aural version of branding. This is very well-known by professional producers, musicians and music marketing.

meri_dian 9y ago

If anyone is curious about Beethoven's life, I can recommend and excellent and relatively recently published biography: 'Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph', by Jan Swafford. We see figures like Beethoven and Goethe as geniuses themselves, but the 18th century conception of 'genius' was not of a person, but of a sort of holy spirit that blessed an individual with great abilities, while remaining separate from that person. So prior to Romantics of the 19th century taking hold of the concept of genius and re-purposing it into the one we're familiar with today, one would not speak of someone being a genius, but being graced with genius. Genius was not who they were, but something external to them that they possessed. It's a subtle but interesting difference.

G2kyd7 9y ago
Yes, also different cultures would apply it to different roles. In Germany I believe, only artists, could have genius, whereas in France and England this could apply to politicians and other groups as well. Goethe was a actually part of the early "Geniekult".
roceasta 9y ago
The word 'spirit' is vague but the older idea is more accurate than the modern assumption that geniuses are merely 'smart' above a certain threshold. In reality creative genius expresses itself through those who love truth to their core and who follow only their inner motivations. These qualities are sometimes abandoned which results in a fall and a loss of former abilities. http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-endogenous-personality-its.html http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-endoge...
jly 9y ago
Another Beethoven biography for the beginner that I can recommend is 'Beethoven: The Music and the Life' by Lewis Lockwood. This one does a good treatment on his life while also weaving in relevant analysis of his music for the layperson with some musical background. It's a great introduction to both aspects of his life for the non-serious musician and will give you a much greater appreciation for his work.
colanderman 9y ago

gmarx 9y ago

I love the description Goethe provides of Beethoven's personality. We've all met that guy, extremely talented, contempt for the world which you kind of admire but seriously dude could you give it a rest? I'm trying to enjoy myself...people are always the same. only the technology changes

cafard 9y ago

"No doubt Beethoven chided Goethe along these lines, and the most revered writer in the land would not have taken kindly to any sort of dressing down, friendly or otherwise." No doubt? I'd say no evidence.