5 ms·

Valid points in the Google manifesto have been totally ignored

77 points by DonbunEf7 9y ago

savethefuture 9y ago
From the post: But, could it possibly be that, we don't get to 50% of female employees in tech because, at present, they generally show less interest in those disciplines and are therefore less represented? No? Why should we aim to get to a 50% proportion if the proportion in the pool we are picking from is not even close to that? And why would 50% be a target anyway? The target should be to ensure that good people are hired and that they are able to work well together, regardless of the minority they might be in. I think tech giants try hard to get that part right and to ensure that discriminations do not happen. Maybe the problem lies somewhere else: universities, or even at a younger age, in families (no we all know education has nothing to do with that kind of thing). Or maybe we could look at marketing and role models in our society. Maybe we just need time to let numbers even out, maybe there isn't even a problem to begin with, because females might actually be 5 times less likely to be naturally interested in tech. Who knows?
- chronic8k 9y ago
  > Maybe we just need time to let numbers even out, maybe there isn't even a problem to begin with, because females might actually be 5 times less likely to be naturally interested in tech. Who knows? No, no. Google clearly knows. That's why they are going for 50/50.
  - savethefuture 9y ago
    It is beautiful, politically correct logic is eating its self.
- rhizome 9y ago
  Of course what they leave out is any justification for prioritizing the demographics of the hiring pool over the demographics of Google's customers. The universe as we know it is essentially 50/50 male-female.
  - neo4sure 9y ago
    Do you have a data and sources on who Google customers are? I bet according to you most of them are Males?
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Google's customer base is "everybody."
nicolashahn 9y ago
This seems to be reiterating almost exactly the points that the "manifesto" was making. Maybe people will actually read this one before responding without being primed for outrage by Gizmodo.
bkeroack 9y ago
Be careful, you might be blacklisted! Remember, thoughtcrime is still crime.
freespeech9009 9y ago
Some folks have set up donations for James Damore to help him until he finds new employment: https://www.wesearchr.com/bounties/james-damore-official-fundraiser https://www.wesearchr.com/bounties/james-damore-official-fun... Engineers should help engineers in times like these.
- AckSyn 9y ago
  I've read he has another job offer with Wikileaks. Here's to hoping he gets it (if he wants to work there). http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article166014132.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/articl...
- rhizome 9y ago
  Just to note the self-segregating perfection of the fundraiser being hosted by Charles C. Johnson[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_C._Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_C._Johnson
- secstate 9y ago
  Free speech, and throwaway usernames FTW! What are the times you are referring to? The times of breaking company policy? You can argue all you want that he was sacrificed on the alter of liberal witch hunting. But the reality is that his employer found it reasonable enough to have rules regarding what you, as a representative said employer, are allowed to say, then you will be fired. Full stop. No one is talking about a lawsuit, or revoking his citizenship. He is perfectly entitled to his opinions. If I go and shit in the company sink because it seemed like a victimless crime and that all the waste water goes to the same place, I will expect some sort of company push back on me. And sure as hell wouldn't expect anyone to start a fundraising campaign so I can take my special brand of colon evacuation somewhere else.
genzoman 9y ago
Everyone line up for the Google blood test that tells you what job you can have.
- rothbardrand 9y ago
  Is that a GATTACA reference? I think that's a GATTACA reference! Great movie, well before it's time, worth watching for any hacker. Especially now that sequencing is 100,000 times cheaper than it was 20 years ago.
- funnyguys 9y ago
  Yes, like in Gattaca we will decide the traits of people based on the gender, race and blood samples and assign jobs based on that.
CryoLogic 9y ago
I think men are naturally more competitive too. There aren't tons of studies on human competition, but when male dogs go through puberty they become more competitive and aggressive, hence a reason why neutering is so popular (to curb the behavior). Also a lot of the top contributors to these equality / affirmative action posts seem ignorant of biochemistry. They always sight testosterone and estrogen as the only chemical differences, which is very high-school level understanding of the real gender differences. You need to look at many androgens (androsenediol, androstenendione, dehydroepiandrosterone, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone), estrogens (estradiol, estetrol, estriol, estrone), progestogens (e.g. progesterone) and other biomarkers like DHEA, adrenals, prolactin to get the full picture. This is also why the people claiming transgenders are identical hormonally to the gender they are swapping to frustrate me. It's just not the case. There are a huge array of sex hormones aside from testosterone and estrogen (usually referring to e2 or estradiol) that have large impact on an individual. I don't really care what you do with your body, but don't be ignorant to the science of what you are changing / not changing. Anyway, I am not suggesting in anyway that we discriminate against one group or another. But we should all do our part and try to learn the differences between eachother to better understand these issues. EDIT: I am quite liberal and don't hate anyone. I just am frustrated at other liberals who opt to ignore science to push their own agendas. EDIT2: It's really sad that I feel the need to actually have to post the first edit.
- neo4sure 9y ago
  Male dogs very funny...
- wombatpm 9y ago
  I'm going to suggest neutering the younger developers at the next standup...
- CryoLogic 9y ago
  Already downvoted. Gotta love the HN hivemind.
- savethefuture 9y ago
  Liberals eating liberals, its gold, this whole event is pure gold.
funnyguys 9y ago
Quote from another article: "All of these traits which the manifesto described as “female” are the core traits which make someone successful at engineering. Anyone can learn how to write code; hell, by the time someone reaches L7 or so, it’s expected that they have an essentially complete mastery of technique. The truly hard parts about this job are knowing which code to write, building the clear plan of what has to be done in order to achieve which goal, and building the consensus required to make that happen." There are some good points in the memo - like having training and support for men, but it was largely an exercise in casting doubt on the ability of certain subset of your co-workers to do their job.

77 points by DonbunEf7 9y ago

From the post: But, could it possibly be that, we don't get to 50% of female employees in tech because, at present, they generally show less interest in those disciplines and are therefore less represented? No? Why should we aim to get to a 50% proportion if the proportion in the pool we are picking from is not even close to that? And why would 50% be a target anyway? The target should be to ensure that good people are hired and that they are able to work well together, regardless of the minority they might be in. I think tech giants try hard to get that part right and to ensure that discriminations do not happen. Maybe the problem lies somewhere else: universities, or even at a younger age, in families (no we all know education has nothing to do with that kind of thing). Or maybe we could look at marketing and role models in our society. Maybe we just need time to let numbers even out, maybe there isn't even a problem to begin with, because females might actually be 5 times less likely to be naturally interested in tech. Who knows?

chronic8k 9y ago
> Maybe we just need time to let numbers even out, maybe there isn't even a problem to begin with, because females might actually be 5 times less likely to be naturally interested in tech. Who knows? No, no. Google clearly knows. That's why they are going for 50/50.
- savethefuture 9y ago
  It is beautiful, politically correct logic is eating its self.
rhizome 9y ago
Of course what they leave out is any justification for prioritizing the demographics of the hiring pool over the demographics of Google's customers. The universe as we know it is essentially 50/50 male-female.
- neo4sure 9y ago
  Do you have a data and sources on who Google customers are? I bet according to you most of them are Males?
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Google's customer base is "everybody."

nicolashahn 9y ago

This seems to be reiterating almost exactly the points that the "manifesto" was making. Maybe people will actually read this one before responding without being primed for outrage by Gizmodo.

bkeroack 9y ago

Be careful, you might be blacklisted! Remember, thoughtcrime is still crime.

freespeech9009 9y ago

Some folks have set up donations for James Damore to help him until he finds new employment: https://www.wesearchr.com/bounties/james-damore-official-fundraiser https://www.wesearchr.com/bounties/james-damore-official-fun... Engineers should help engineers in times like these.

AckSyn 9y ago
I've read he has another job offer with Wikileaks. Here's to hoping he gets it (if he wants to work there). http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article166014132.html http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/articl...
rhizome 9y ago
Just to note the self-segregating perfection of the fundraiser being hosted by Charles C. Johnson[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_C._Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_C._Johnson
secstate 9y ago
Free speech, and throwaway usernames FTW! What are the times you are referring to? The times of breaking company policy? You can argue all you want that he was sacrificed on the alter of liberal witch hunting. But the reality is that his employer found it reasonable enough to have rules regarding what you, as a representative said employer, are allowed to say, then you will be fired. Full stop. No one is talking about a lawsuit, or revoking his citizenship. He is perfectly entitled to his opinions. If I go and shit in the company sink because it seemed like a victimless crime and that all the waste water goes to the same place, I will expect some sort of company push back on me. And sure as hell wouldn't expect anyone to start a fundraising campaign so I can take my special brand of colon evacuation somewhere else.

genzoman 9y ago

Everyone line up for the Google blood test that tells you what job you can have.

rothbardrand 9y ago
Is that a GATTACA reference? I think that's a GATTACA reference! Great movie, well before it's time, worth watching for any hacker. Especially now that sequencing is 100,000 times cheaper than it was 20 years ago.
funnyguys 9y ago
Yes, like in Gattaca we will decide the traits of people based on the gender, race and blood samples and assign jobs based on that.

CryoLogic 9y ago

I think men are naturally more competitive too. There aren't tons of studies on human competition, but when male dogs go through puberty they become more competitive and aggressive, hence a reason why neutering is so popular (to curb the behavior). Also a lot of the top contributors to these equality / affirmative action posts seem ignorant of biochemistry. They always sight testosterone and estrogen as the only chemical differences, which is very high-school level understanding of the real gender differences. You need to look at many androgens (androsenediol, androstenendione, dehydroepiandrosterone, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone), estrogens (estradiol, estetrol, estriol, estrone), progestogens (e.g. progesterone) and other biomarkers like DHEA, adrenals, prolactin to get the full picture. This is also why the people claiming transgenders are identical hormonally to the gender they are swapping to frustrate me. It's just not the case. There are a huge array of sex hormones aside from testosterone and estrogen (usually referring to e2 or estradiol) that have large impact on an individual. I don't really care what you do with your body, but don't be ignorant to the science of what you are changing / not changing. Anyway, I am not suggesting in anyway that we discriminate against one group or another. But we should all do our part and try to learn the differences between eachother to better understand these issues. EDIT: I am quite liberal and don't hate anyone. I just am frustrated at other liberals who opt to ignore science to push their own agendas. EDIT2: It's really sad that I feel the need to actually have to post the first edit.

neo4sure 9y ago
Male dogs very funny...
wombatpm 9y ago
I'm going to suggest neutering the younger developers at the next standup...
CryoLogic 9y ago
Already downvoted. Gotta love the HN hivemind.
savethefuture 9y ago
Liberals eating liberals, its gold, this whole event is pure gold.

funnyguys 9y ago

Quote from another article: "All of these traits which the manifesto described as “female” are the core traits which make someone successful at engineering. Anyone can learn how to write code; hell, by the time someone reaches L7 or so, it’s expected that they have an essentially complete mastery of technique. The truly hard parts about this job are knowing which code to write, building the clear plan of what has to be done in order to achieve which goal, and building the consensus required to make that happen." There are some good points in the memo - like having training and support for men, but it was largely an exercise in casting doubt on the ability of certain subset of your co-workers to do their job.