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This article is basically a "by liberals, for liberals" attempt to inspire some philosophical self-reflection. It kept coming to mind over these last few weeks,

This article is basically a "by liberals, for liberals" attempt to inspire some philosophical self-reflection. It kept coming to mind over these last few weeks, and especially last couple days, of stories stirring up so much rage, counter-rage, questionable arguments, emotional triggering, etc. I've always identified left but I'm definitely starting to feel confused by the actions of other leftys. I definitely don't identify with the right so overall I'm feeling tribeless as of late. Thought it worth reposting this. For completeness, here is last round of discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12906783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12906783

Cryptid 9y ago
Conor Freidersdorf argues this is an American phenomenon: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-the-smug-liberals-critique-leaves-out/525189/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-th...
mattnewton 9y ago
I hope you are not alone and moderates once again claim power instead of the see-saw of tribal politics lately.
metaphorm 9y ago
I believe that "tribeless" politics is the only kind that can actually yield effective solutions, and that the tribal manifestions of political behavior are primarily focused on dividing into in-group/out-group and enriching the in-group while punishing the out-group. I choose to remain tribeless.
- nyolfen 9y ago
  this is basically the idea of the core compromise liberal political philosophy is meant to address: > People talk about “liberalism” as if it’s just another word for capitalism, or libertarianism, or vague center-left-Democratic Clintonism. Liberalism is none of these things. Liberalism is a technology for preventing civil war. It was forged in the fires of Hell – the horrors of the endless seventeenth century religious wars. For a hundred years, Europe tore itself apart in some of the most brutal ways imaginable – until finally, from the burning wreckage, we drew forth this amazing piece of alien machinery. A machine that, when tuned just right, let people live together peacefully without doing the “kill people for being Protestant” thing. Popular historical strategies for dealing with differences have included: brutally enforced conformity, brutally efficient genocide, and making sure to keep the alien machine tuned really really carefully. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/ it's a terrible shame we seem to be forgetting this as liberalism simply becomes a tribe
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    thanks for linking that. yes indeed Liberalism (capital L) is the best technology yet invented for preventing civil war, which is otherwise the more-or-less inevitable outcome of tribal politics. the most important methodology of Liberalism is the cultural norm and moral importance of unfettered freedom of speech, expression, and association. The moral and normative importance of free speech cannot be understated. Losing this as a norm has eviscerated the left leaving them as noxious authoritarians sliding down the slope to Mao-ism.
dotnetisnotdead 9y ago
> always identified left but I'm definitely starting to feel confused by the actions of other leftys. I definitely don't identify with the right so overall I'm feeling tribeless as of late. You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifelong liberal here, and lately I feel the left has abandoned me. Whenever I call something into question I'm told that I'm a nazi, or that I'm "just not angry enough" and some dishes have to be broken for the cause, etc. I no longer feel part of the crowd, but I am certainly far from a right winger, so.. tribeless myself. The left is turning into a fascist group. Ironically while waving the flag pretending to fight it. In fact, the liberal movement is turning into the type of populace the government has always wanted. No right to an opinion, speech and expression are heavily regulated, and we rely on the government for everything. We tell others exactly how to live their lives and punish them when they don't. This wasn't what I signed up for.
- talmand 9y ago
  >> The left is turning into a fascist group. The fringe left, while the moderates remain silent. I've found it interesting that of late there has been a minor attempt to redefine fascism as a right-wing ideology so that fascists of the left can't be accused of fascism.
  - dotnetisnotdead 9y ago
    It's more than minor, Google changed their definition a while ago, and dictionaries have been following suit. I always thought it would be Republicans who would make 1984 a reality!
vowelless 9y ago
In 2007 I faced a lot of racism by right wing nut jobs because I am a brown man, athiest, who came here from the middle East. And yes, also detained at airports (had SSSS "printed" on my boarding pass perpetually ). But in 2016, I got called a neo nazi islamophobe for daring to question question SPLC for putting Majid Nawaz and Ayan Hirsi Ali on their Target list! And I have watched with my jaw on the ground how Linda Sarsour is now a women's leader! I have no space in the American political discourse. I know I hate the right wing... They did some horrible things to me because of where I come from and my skin color. But I now absolutely detest the left wing for calling me a neo Nazi(!!) islamophobe for criticizing actions of some of these left wing orgs. I feel only relief now claiming I am not left wing.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
Well, if it helps you any, I've always identified right, but... Maybe the current environment is broken for everyone who isn't crazy?

Cryptid 9y ago

Conor Freidersdorf argues this is an American phenomenon: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-the-smug-liberals-critique-leaves-out/525189/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/what-th...

mattnewton 9y ago

I hope you are not alone and moderates once again claim power instead of the see-saw of tribal politics lately.

metaphorm 9y ago

I believe that "tribeless" politics is the only kind that can actually yield effective solutions, and that the tribal manifestions of political behavior are primarily focused on dividing into in-group/out-group and enriching the in-group while punishing the out-group. I choose to remain tribeless.

nyolfen 9y ago
this is basically the idea of the core compromise liberal political philosophy is meant to address: > People talk about “liberalism” as if it’s just another word for capitalism, or libertarianism, or vague center-left-Democratic Clintonism. Liberalism is none of these things. Liberalism is a technology for preventing civil war. It was forged in the fires of Hell – the horrors of the endless seventeenth century religious wars. For a hundred years, Europe tore itself apart in some of the most brutal ways imaginable – until finally, from the burning wreckage, we drew forth this amazing piece of alien machinery. A machine that, when tuned just right, let people live together peacefully without doing the “kill people for being Protestant” thing. Popular historical strategies for dealing with differences have included: brutally enforced conformity, brutally efficient genocide, and making sure to keep the alien machine tuned really really carefully. http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/ it's a terrible shame we seem to be forgetting this as liberalism simply becomes a tribe
- metaphorm 9y ago
  thanks for linking that. yes indeed Liberalism (capital L) is the best technology yet invented for preventing civil war, which is otherwise the more-or-less inevitable outcome of tribal politics. the most important methodology of Liberalism is the cultural norm and moral importance of unfettered freedom of speech, expression, and association. The moral and normative importance of free speech cannot be understated. Losing this as a norm has eviscerated the left leaving them as noxious authoritarians sliding down the slope to Mao-ism.

dotnetisnotdead 9y ago

> always identified left but I'm definitely starting to feel confused by the actions of other leftys. I definitely don't identify with the right so overall I'm feeling tribeless as of late. You took the words right out of my mouth. Lifelong liberal here, and lately I feel the left has abandoned me. Whenever I call something into question I'm told that I'm a nazi, or that I'm "just not angry enough" and some dishes have to be broken for the cause, etc. I no longer feel part of the crowd, but I am certainly far from a right winger, so.. tribeless myself. The left is turning into a fascist group. Ironically while waving the flag pretending to fight it. In fact, the liberal movement is turning into the type of populace the government has always wanted. No right to an opinion, speech and expression are heavily regulated, and we rely on the government for everything. We tell others exactly how to live their lives and punish them when they don't. This wasn't what I signed up for.

talmand 9y ago
>> The left is turning into a fascist group. The fringe left, while the moderates remain silent. I've found it interesting that of late there has been a minor attempt to redefine fascism as a right-wing ideology so that fascists of the left can't be accused of fascism.
- dotnetisnotdead 9y ago
  It's more than minor, Google changed their definition a while ago, and dictionaries have been following suit. I always thought it would be Republicans who would make 1984 a reality!

vowelless 9y ago

In 2007 I faced a lot of racism by right wing nut jobs because I am a brown man, athiest, who came here from the middle East. And yes, also detained at airports (had SSSS "printed" on my boarding pass perpetually ). But in 2016, I got called a neo nazi islamophobe for daring to question question SPLC for putting Majid Nawaz and Ayan Hirsi Ali on their Target list! And I have watched with my jaw on the ground how Linda Sarsour is now a women's leader! I have no space in the American political discourse. I know I hate the right wing... They did some horrible things to me because of where I come from and my skin color. But I now absolutely detest the left wing for calling me a neo Nazi(!!) islamophobe for criticizing actions of some of these left wing orgs. I feel only relief now claiming I am not left wing.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

Well, if it helps you any, I've always identified right, but... Maybe the current environment is broken for everyone who isn't crazy?