4 ms·

As a German a) I don't want to feed the Visa/Mastercard/Amex/Whatever leach earning a few cents of every transaction.

by sparkling 9y ago

wila 9y ago
Not German, but I simply don't want to leave my trail of what I am spending and where.
- eatbitseveryday 9y ago
  And what of purchases made on websites?
  - Froyoh 9y ago
    Opt for money order, cheques?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    As very few Germans even have credit cards, most Germans pay online (if they don’t use PayPal) via SEPA wire transfer or SEPA ELV. And even PayPal and Amazon support using SEPA ELV to pay for stuff.
- theEXTORTCIST 9y ago
  Was waiting for this comment. I often ask myself, "Do I want any entity to have a copy of the exact dates and amounts of my entire daily consumer activity?". Whether anonymized or not there is a tremendous amount of knowledge that can be gleaned from non-itemized debit card ledgers.
- 317070 9y ago
  I also think/thought like that. But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. A quick reference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 E.g. about China: "According to schedule, by late 2015, the serial number of every Rmb100 note withdrawn from banks by members of the public can be traced."
  - jhasse 9y ago
    > But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. That doesn't include how much you spend exactly. And it only works most of the time (what if my money gets used as change for another customer?).
- nostromo123 9y ago
  Same here. Also, been a couple of times in the situation where either the shop's card terminal was malfunctioning, or the bank had some issues, and the card payment was impossible. Without cash you'd be helpless in such a situation, whereas cash = power & independence.
hocuspocus 9y ago
In 4 party schemes, most of the transaction fees don't actually go to Visa/MC.
Sleeep 9y ago
Handling cash is not free either, it also comes with transaction costs.
- herbst 9y ago
  But it's money spent on my government and not some American companies. Huge difference IMO
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    No, the companies pay the cost of handling cash as well. There's the labor costs of handling cash - counting it, moving it, organizing it, accounting for it, making sure there's enough change to run a shift; the cost of storing and transporting it - safes, cash draws, key management, money transport/money transport companies; and the cost of loss due to theft, mistakes, and mismanagement. I'm not saying that the cost of cash is more than the cost of card, I'm simply saying its not anywhere near free. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >But new research from Tufts University aims to highlight the pain points of cash, where digital currency can break in. The use of physical bills costs US consumers, businesses and the government at least $200 billion each year—about $1,739 per household. Here are the main reasons why: >Small businesses don’t lose much money by operating cash-only. But larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-shop/ http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-sho... (There's also a potential to increase sales by accepting card.)
- wott 9y ago
  Nope.
  - Sleeep 9y ago
    Yep. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues.

As a German a) I don't want to feed the Visa/Mastercard/Amex/Whatever leach earning a few cents of every transaction.

wila 9y ago

Not German, but I simply don't want to leave my trail of what I am spending and where.

eatbitseveryday 9y ago
And what of purchases made on websites?
- Froyoh 9y ago
  Opt for money order, cheques?
- kuschku 9y ago
  As very few Germans even have credit cards, most Germans pay online (if they don’t use PayPal) via SEPA wire transfer or SEPA ELV. And even PayPal and Amazon support using SEPA ELV to pay for stuff.
theEXTORTCIST 9y ago
Was waiting for this comment. I often ask myself, "Do I want any entity to have a copy of the exact dates and amounts of my entire daily consumer activity?". Whether anonymized or not there is a tremendous amount of knowledge that can be gleaned from non-itemized debit card ledgers.
317070 9y ago
I also think/thought like that. But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. A quick reference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 E.g. about China: "According to schedule, by late 2015, the serial number of every Rmb100 note withdrawn from banks by members of the public can be traced."
- jhasse 9y ago
  > But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. That doesn't include how much you spend exactly. And it only works most of the time (what if my money gets used as change for another customer?).
nostromo123 9y ago
Same here. Also, been a couple of times in the situation where either the shop's card terminal was malfunctioning, or the bank had some issues, and the card payment was impossible. Without cash you'd be helpless in such a situation, whereas cash = power & independence.

hocuspocus 9y ago

In 4 party schemes, most of the transaction fees don't actually go to Visa/MC.

Sleeep 9y ago

Handling cash is not free either, it also comes with transaction costs.

herbst 9y ago
But it's money spent on my government and not some American companies. Huge difference IMO
- Sleeep 9y ago
  No, the companies pay the cost of handling cash as well. There's the labor costs of handling cash - counting it, moving it, organizing it, accounting for it, making sure there's enough change to run a shift; the cost of storing and transporting it - safes, cash draws, key management, money transport/money transport companies; and the cost of loss due to theft, mistakes, and mismanagement. I'm not saying that the cost of cash is more than the cost of card, I'm simply saying its not anywhere near free. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >But new research from Tufts University aims to highlight the pain points of cash, where digital currency can break in. The use of physical bills costs US consumers, businesses and the government at least $200 billion each year—about $1,739 per household. Here are the main reasons why: >Small businesses don’t lose much money by operating cash-only. But larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-shop/ http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-sho... (There's also a potential to increase sales by accepting card.)
wott 9y ago
Nope.
- Sleeep 9y ago
  Yep. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues.