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As a Swiss German I think the currency stability argument is moot. Swiss Frank is one of the most stable currencies available and we still have a similar attitu

As a Swiss German I think the currency stability argument is moot. Swiss Frank is one of the most stable currencies available and we still have a similar attitude to cash as Germans. IMO it's mainly due to the following reasons: 1) CC is slow, at least in Switzerland. Like in Germany, efficiency is baked into the culture - people hate to wait on someone paying his chocolate bar with credit card. It's also not rare for people to show you that discontempt. This trains people into behaving. 2) Switzerland, as most of Germany, is a mostly urbanized place with good public transport and facilities close to where people live. Meaning, there's way less weekly mall-shopping going on than in less dense countries like the US or France. So, the average total price is lower since shopping trips are more frequent, often about every second or third day after work. 3) Security concerns. For a long time CC were as insecure as the US ones, with a simple swipe of the magnetic stripe being sufficient, and CC fraud was relatively frequent. So, many people have an instinct of only using CC when necessary, and if at all possible not in public places. Debit card on the other hand have always been relatively secure (6-digit pin code, 3 tries), so they are used more often, maybe more so than in the German example since Swiss banks have pushed them since around 20 years ago.

Semaphor 9y ago
> CC is slow, at least in Switzerland. Like in Germany, efficiency is baked into the culture - people hate to wait on someone paying his chocolate bar with credit card. I pay with my card faster than the vast majority of people with cash. I also worked as a cashier during school, my favorite people were the older ones who'd just hand me their wallet so I could take the best mix of coins for the payment. Most people are horribly slow when trying to pay optimally. Anyway, at least here in Germany the whole NFC thing seems to be taking off and card payments are even faster now.
intsunny 9y ago
> 1) CC is slow While the CC may or may not be slow. In the 5+ months I've now been living in Germany, I've noticed that people are very keen to pay with exact change if they can dig it up. This is an even slower process, but also seems to be the norm.
- samastur 9y ago
  Years ago I collected all change for 6 months without spending any. Afterwards I counted all to see how much of each type of coin I have collected during this time. The idea was to see if it is worth bothering collecting all coins or is there are a cut-off for me as I dislike having carrying really thick and heavy wallet. It turned out that for my pattern of cash use collecting coins bellow 10 cents really wasn't worth it. A few years ago I visited Berlin again and tried to leave few cents in local supermarket. It was the only time while being there that I can remember people giving me unfriendly looks. Cashier was also visibly unhappy.
  - herbst 9y ago
    People just collect them at home and bring them to the bank when they make holidays or so. Usually I don't see small coins used by anyone except cashiers for return money. Personally I just throw them in those collection boxes for good things at airports and train stations when I leave the country.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    When I pay with cash and the change would be below 5 cents, I usually say "Stimmt so" (i.e. "keep the change") and just leave. If I forget and the cashier puts change on the counter, I just pick the golden and silver coins and leave the rest lying there. I don't remember any unfriendly looks. But then again, I'm German, so I probably just didn't notice the looks. :)
    - y4mi 9y ago
      Oh youll them if you paid attention. The cashier's get into trouble if they have an incorrect amount of money in the counter and you're essentially telling them you're too good to bother putting the coins into the donations box sitting centimeters next to you. If that isnt rude, I don't know what is. This only applies to big discounters thought. The smallish shops and bakers don't mind at all.
      - samastur 9y ago
nxc18 9y ago
Interesting. At least in my experience in the us, people paying cash is much, much slower than using credit or debit. All it takes is one customer paying cash to turn a fast register into a storefront-filling queue.
- bittercynic 9y ago
  In my US experience, the variation from customer to customer is much larger than the difference between cash and card. You can be pretty fast or very slow with either method.
- usrusr 9y ago
  Hardly surprising that a rare form of payment isn't terribly fast. When you have cashiers who work with actual cash all day, and customers who know the process of taking a quick inventory of their change reservoir while their goods are being scanned so that they can very quickly decide between giving precise change (in addition to the uprounded sum in paper) or not once the final sum is known. Mirror picture in Germany, many people are still wasting time engaging in some kind of mini-negotiation with the cashier before paying in plastic (usually a debit card, which is quickly taking over most cash transactions that happen at a register). Also, American banknotes with their identical size and color over all denominations are just incredibly impractical for anything but building those nice tidy stacks of drug money depicted in the movies. Cash payments in the United States are a terrible benchmark.
- jdboyd 9y ago
  In my experience (in the US) it is the one person paying with a check that does that. And checks are extremely common in grocery and other big box stores here. Cash is usually not a significant slow down compared to debit or credit, possibly in part because of time spent fussing with PINs or signing receipts.
louisswiss 9y ago
Have been living on and off in Switzerland for the last 7 years(Zurich mainly). Your post describes my experience in Switzerland when I first moved here, however for the past year or two (since contactless payments and NFC took off) I would say that your first point has completely reversed - it is now much faster to pay with card unless you have the exact change ready. Also regarding your third point, anecdotally I have heard that many smaller shops/restaurants are now pushing for non-cash payments as it is more difficult for employees to steal that way. In Sweden and Denmark there are many places where cash isn't accepted. Come to think of it, I was on a business trip to Frankfurt last week and the restaurant we ate at only accepted cards.
- m_mueller 9y ago
  Interesting point about contactless, I've been living abroad thr last 3 years ;)
arethuza 9y ago
I pay for most purchases here in the UK with a debit card - mostly using contactless payments. There is no doubt to me that this is much faster than mucking about with bits of paper and chunks of metal. e.g. when buying train or tram tickets the printing of the ticket takes much longer than the payment step.
lr4444lr 9y ago
But (3) is exactly why many people do use credit cards: exposing information of your actual cash accounts over and over in transactions increases the risk of fraud. It's much safer to fight for the integrity of your credit account because it's someone else's (the bank's) money. They are far better equipped to handle the case, which would sap not only more of your own money, but a lot of time. Waiting for a replacement card is far less painful.
petard 9y ago
on 1) Recent touch-based CC terminals are really fast, and often don't require a PIN if the amount is less than 10€. I've stopped using cash since with these terminals CC are faster than paying in cash.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  Android/Apple Pay (using NFC) is even faster from my experience. On top of that, the merchant never gets your CC data, so it's much more secure. It's still not widespread, but I make sure to use it whenever I get the chance.
  - foepys 9y ago
    Is this really true for Android? I know Apple hides your CC number but I'm unsure about Android.
    - mohlerm 9y ago
      Yes, it's true even for android. From: https://www.android.com/pay/ https://www.android.com/pay/ Your card info stays safe When you use your phone to pay in stores, Android Pay doesn’t send your actual credit or debit card number with your payment. Instead we use a virtual account number to represent your account info – so your card details stay safe and secure.
      - majewsky 9y ago
        > virtual account number So, just as trackable as a credit card number. Or are virtual account numbers unique per transaction?
        smcgaw 9y ago
        I believe Apple Pay works the same in this respect so the virtual account number is not cycled per transaction. I can't remember if it's cycled per vendor or just unique per device.
TheArcane 9y ago
Here in the Netherlands, paying by contactless card is bar far the fastest. Even with PIN, I'm pretty sure cash will be as fast (if not slower) given the change and handling of coins.
_up 9y ago
Another big aspect is, German people like having control over their spending. Checking my Credit Card is unnecessary frustrating. While you have a pretty good overview of how much you are spending if you always get about the same amount from the ATM.
- herbst 9y ago
  This is the comment I was waiting for the whole thread. I don't want to have to check a huge list of random stupid payments, half of which I can't remember anyway, the other half with obscure names. Just to have a little control and be sure to not be frauded
- CamelCaseName 9y ago
  Huh? You don't have to check your CC if you feel you have a good grasp of how much you are spending. If anything, the CC statement gives you an objective summary of your spending, in case you want to recall something 10 months later, or budget for the future. When you pay only in cash, it will be a burden to keep the receipts, organized and readable, for that long. Plus, isn't it less hassle to use a credit card rather than visit the ATM every so often?
calvinbhai 9y ago
I wonder how this is true "people hate to wait on someone paying his chocolate bar with credit card". In the US, I always wish they had non-cash lanes at grocery stores (especially at Costco, Walmart) because paying cash is almost always a super slow process. Do prices and taxes in Germany for stuff usually end up in whole numbers? I think in that case it's easy to calculate total owed and be ready with the exact amount of cash.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Almost all prices end in .99 or .95, and are with tax included. So you add the numbers up, pay that much, and get 0.0x back, where x is the number of articles you bought, usually.
briandear 9y ago
Regarding credit card security. In Europe, liability is on the person, in the U.S., it’s on the bank. So the “insecurity” of a U.S. credit card is misty irrelevant to the consumer.
chrisper 9y ago
CC is slow? I can nearly pay everywhere with Visa NFC. Don't see how that is slow. Maybe it is just me after having lived in the US where CC is really slow. In fact, it is way faster than me trying to find the right coins for the chocolate bar.
bathory 9y ago
2.) I think this applies to the Netherlands as well, but there debit-card payments are the de facto standard. Some supermarkets even have tills which only accept debit cards.

Semaphor 9y ago

> CC is slow, at least in Switzerland. Like in Germany, efficiency is baked into the culture - people hate to wait on someone paying his chocolate bar with credit card. I pay with my card faster than the vast majority of people with cash. I also worked as a cashier during school, my favorite people were the older ones who'd just hand me their wallet so I could take the best mix of coins for the payment. Most people are horribly slow when trying to pay optimally. Anyway, at least here in Germany the whole NFC thing seems to be taking off and card payments are even faster now.

intsunny 9y ago

> 1) CC is slow While the CC may or may not be slow. In the 5+ months I've now been living in Germany, I've noticed that people are very keen to pay with exact change if they can dig it up. This is an even slower process, but also seems to be the norm.

samastur 9y ago
Years ago I collected all change for 6 months without spending any. Afterwards I counted all to see how much of each type of coin I have collected during this time. The idea was to see if it is worth bothering collecting all coins or is there are a cut-off for me as I dislike having carrying really thick and heavy wallet. It turned out that for my pattern of cash use collecting coins bellow 10 cents really wasn't worth it. A few years ago I visited Berlin again and tried to leave few cents in local supermarket. It was the only time while being there that I can remember people giving me unfriendly looks. Cashier was also visibly unhappy.
- herbst 9y ago
  People just collect them at home and bring them to the bank when they make holidays or so. Usually I don't see small coins used by anyone except cashiers for return money. Personally I just throw them in those collection boxes for good things at airports and train stations when I leave the country.
- majewsky 9y ago
  When I pay with cash and the change would be below 5 cents, I usually say "Stimmt so" (i.e. "keep the change") and just leave. If I forget and the cashier puts change on the counter, I just pick the golden and silver coins and leave the rest lying there. I don't remember any unfriendly looks. But then again, I'm German, so I probably just didn't notice the looks. :)
  - y4mi 9y ago
    Oh youll them if you paid attention. The cashier's get into trouble if they have an incorrect amount of money in the counter and you're essentially telling them you're too good to bother putting the coins into the donations box sitting centimeters next to you. If that isnt rude, I don't know what is. This only applies to big discounters thought. The smallish shops and bakers don't mind at all.
    - samastur 9y ago

nxc18 9y ago

Interesting. At least in my experience in the us, people paying cash is much, much slower than using credit or debit. All it takes is one customer paying cash to turn a fast register into a storefront-filling queue.

bittercynic 9y ago
In my US experience, the variation from customer to customer is much larger than the difference between cash and card. You can be pretty fast or very slow with either method.
usrusr 9y ago
Hardly surprising that a rare form of payment isn't terribly fast. When you have cashiers who work with actual cash all day, and customers who know the process of taking a quick inventory of their change reservoir while their goods are being scanned so that they can very quickly decide between giving precise change (in addition to the uprounded sum in paper) or not once the final sum is known. Mirror picture in Germany, many people are still wasting time engaging in some kind of mini-negotiation with the cashier before paying in plastic (usually a debit card, which is quickly taking over most cash transactions that happen at a register). Also, American banknotes with their identical size and color over all denominations are just incredibly impractical for anything but building those nice tidy stacks of drug money depicted in the movies. Cash payments in the United States are a terrible benchmark.
jdboyd 9y ago
In my experience (in the US) it is the one person paying with a check that does that. And checks are extremely common in grocery and other big box stores here. Cash is usually not a significant slow down compared to debit or credit, possibly in part because of time spent fussing with PINs or signing receipts.

louisswiss 9y ago

Have been living on and off in Switzerland for the last 7 years(Zurich mainly). Your post describes my experience in Switzerland when I first moved here, however for the past year or two (since contactless payments and NFC took off) I would say that your first point has completely reversed - it is now much faster to pay with card unless you have the exact change ready. Also regarding your third point, anecdotally I have heard that many smaller shops/restaurants are now pushing for non-cash payments as it is more difficult for employees to steal that way. In Sweden and Denmark there are many places where cash isn't accepted. Come to think of it, I was on a business trip to Frankfurt last week and the restaurant we ate at only accepted cards.

m_mueller 9y ago
Interesting point about contactless, I've been living abroad thr last 3 years ;)

arethuza 9y ago

I pay for most purchases here in the UK with a debit card - mostly using contactless payments. There is no doubt to me that this is much faster than mucking about with bits of paper and chunks of metal. e.g. when buying train or tram tickets the printing of the ticket takes much longer than the payment step.

lr4444lr 9y ago

But (3) is exactly why many people do use credit cards: exposing information of your actual cash accounts over and over in transactions increases the risk of fraud. It's much safer to fight for the integrity of your credit account because it's someone else's (the bank's) money. They are far better equipped to handle the case, which would sap not only more of your own money, but a lot of time. Waiting for a replacement card is far less painful.

petard 9y ago

on 1) Recent touch-based CC terminals are really fast, and often don't require a PIN if the amount is less than 10€. I've stopped using cash since with these terminals CC are faster than paying in cash.

Cyph0n 9y ago
Android/Apple Pay (using NFC) is even faster from my experience. On top of that, the merchant never gets your CC data, so it's much more secure. It's still not widespread, but I make sure to use it whenever I get the chance.
- foepys 9y ago
  Is this really true for Android? I know Apple hides your CC number but I'm unsure about Android.
  - mohlerm 9y ago
    Yes, it's true even for android. From: https://www.android.com/pay/ https://www.android.com/pay/ Your card info stays safe When you use your phone to pay in stores, Android Pay doesn’t send your actual credit or debit card number with your payment. Instead we use a virtual account number to represent your account info – so your card details stay safe and secure.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      > virtual account number So, just as trackable as a credit card number. Or are virtual account numbers unique per transaction?
      - smcgaw 9y ago
        I believe Apple Pay works the same in this respect so the virtual account number is not cycled per transaction. I can't remember if it's cycled per vendor or just unique per device.

TheArcane 9y ago

Here in the Netherlands, paying by contactless card is bar far the fastest. Even with PIN, I'm pretty sure cash will be as fast (if not slower) given the change and handling of coins.

_up 9y ago

Another big aspect is, German people like having control over their spending. Checking my Credit Card is unnecessary frustrating. While you have a pretty good overview of how much you are spending if you always get about the same amount from the ATM.

herbst 9y ago
This is the comment I was waiting for the whole thread. I don't want to have to check a huge list of random stupid payments, half of which I can't remember anyway, the other half with obscure names. Just to have a little control and be sure to not be frauded
CamelCaseName 9y ago
Huh? You don't have to check your CC if you feel you have a good grasp of how much you are spending. If anything, the CC statement gives you an objective summary of your spending, in case you want to recall something 10 months later, or budget for the future. When you pay only in cash, it will be a burden to keep the receipts, organized and readable, for that long. Plus, isn't it less hassle to use a credit card rather than visit the ATM every so often?

calvinbhai 9y ago

I wonder how this is true "people hate to wait on someone paying his chocolate bar with credit card". In the US, I always wish they had non-cash lanes at grocery stores (especially at Costco, Walmart) because paying cash is almost always a super slow process. Do prices and taxes in Germany for stuff usually end up in whole numbers? I think in that case it's easy to calculate total owed and be ready with the exact amount of cash.

kuschku 9y ago
Almost all prices end in .99 or .95, and are with tax included. So you add the numbers up, pay that much, and get 0.0x back, where x is the number of articles you bought, usually.

briandear 9y ago

Regarding credit card security. In Europe, liability is on the person, in the U.S., it’s on the bank. So the “insecurity” of a U.S. credit card is misty irrelevant to the consumer.

chrisper 9y ago

CC is slow? I can nearly pay everywhere with Visa NFC. Don't see how that is slow. Maybe it is just me after having lived in the US where CC is really slow. In fact, it is way faster than me trying to find the right coins for the chocolate bar.

bathory 9y ago

2.) I think this applies to the Netherlands as well, but there debit-card payments are the de facto standard. Some supermarkets even have tills which only accept debit cards.