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Most brick & mortar stores in Germany will not offer debit card payments under 10 Euros, since the fees they have to pay are extremely high. Most clerks will fr

Most brick & mortar stores in Germany will not offer debit card payments under 10 Euros, since the fees they have to pay are extremely high. Most clerks will frown upon small card payments for that reason, and sometimes outright decline the payment, even if that means no purchase happening. Credit cards are rarely accepted in any store but larger ones in malls. Most Germans, and that was pretty spot-on in the article, don't even have a credit card. You can imagine how detrimental that is to building a German SaaS business. Stripe and the like have started going into the ELV market, which is pretty much a direct debit payment - and you need to pass quite a few restrictions to even be allowed to offer ELV as a vendor. All in all, it is both a consumer, banking and a merchant issue, and it severely limits the German E-Commerce landscape in terms of payment solutions. Paypal has taken over German online payments, since it can be linked with a bank account. Credit cards? Not so much.

kerkeslager 9y ago
I can see why this is problematic for the e-commerce industry, but you seem to be saying this is problematic for the economy as a whole. If that's what you're saying, could you provide some justification for this claim?
- arvidkahl 9y ago
  If you want to see e-commerce as a relevant branch of the economy, it's stifling growth. Funny enough, banks are now charging withdrawing fees for cash. So if you only ever buy things with cash, you will loose money on just acquiring it. Net loss for the non-banking economy.
  - kerkeslager 9y ago
    > If you want to see e-commerce as a relevant branch of the economy I don't, and I don't see much evidence that anyone outside the e-commerce industry should want to see that. > Funny enough, banks are now charging withdrawing fees for cash. So if you only ever buy things with cash, you will loose money on just acquiring it. Net loss for the non-banking economy. It's fairly simple to avoid ATM fees. Every bank and credit union I've ever banked at had a network of ATMs, and there's usually no fee for cash back at grocery stores. In contrast, credit cards always charge a fee to the receiving business. Additionally, many workers receive some or all of their pay in cash, cutting banks out of the equation entirely. I don't think you can reasonably claim that credit cards take less from the non- banking economy than cash.
    - arvidkahl 9y ago
      Not in Germany though. Cash salaries don't exists (outside of temp jobs), cash-back from grocery stores is still new and rare. The ATM withdrawal fees are the actual problem, they have been recently introduced, and they happen no matter which network is being used.
FRex 9y ago
Take a hike to Poland if you want to marvel at this tech in action. Paying contactlessly that is. Called "zbliżeniowo" in Polish, that's also the word to say in response to being told the total if you want to use the card without pin and not the cash. It's not universal but extremely common at small shops, super markets, 'better' restaurants. Out of the way places, milk-bars ("bary mleczne", it has nothing to do with milk, it's a cheap place to eat simple foods at), pawn and thrift shops, street vendors, etc. are the majority of ones that don't have it. In Poland such a limit of 10 zlotys is common-ish (I've seen it ONCE in Warsaw when visiting) but will run afoul of agreements terminal owners have with banks and the fees are (I have no idea if that's true, it's hearsay from consumer legal advice websites) percentages not fixed so there is no difference in the end. Of course even if that's true the incentive is there - pure cash has no fees and most people buy little things very often so it adds up.
captainmuon 9y ago
The difference between debit cards and credit cards is not so big and not really relevant. You can do almost everything (domestically) with a debit card that you can do with a credit card in other countries. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of business receiving money already. Wire transfers are ubiquitous, can also be initiated by the vendor after some checking, and have no fees. There are also payment processors who help you as a business. Using cards for small payments, just like large bills, is a bit socially frowned upon, but usually no problem anymore. Compared to the US system, i have almoat nothing to complain about the German system. I sometimes do wonder though why you can't just send money to a telefone number like in China. Like in most countries, banks move slowly here.
thirdsun 9y ago
> Paypal has taken over German online payments, since it can be linked with a bank account. Very true. Whenever payment processors are discussed around here someone will inevitably mention how glad they are that they could finally replace Paypal with Stripe, and why would anyone still use Paypal anyway these days? I like Stripe as much as the next guy, but in Germany it‘s absolutely necessary to offer Paypal and Stripe can only act as an additional gateway. However credit cards are gaining momentum here - the online store of my employer almost sees an equal share between both methods. And then there‘s still about 15-20% of customers who opt for manual SEPA transfer.
germanier 9y ago
The vast majority of German supermarkets accepts credit cards. Aldi even has signs at the cashier telling you it's possible "from the first cent". And that's a store famous for trying to save money wherever it can. If the fees for offering card payment for a store are still extremely high, they are getting ripped off by their acquirer for some time now. But old habits die hard and many sale clerks (and even some store owners) are not aware of the changing reality.

kerkeslager 9y ago

I can see why this is problematic for the e-commerce industry, but you seem to be saying this is problematic for the economy as a whole. If that's what you're saying, could you provide some justification for this claim?

arvidkahl 9y ago
If you want to see e-commerce as a relevant branch of the economy, it's stifling growth. Funny enough, banks are now charging withdrawing fees for cash. So if you only ever buy things with cash, you will loose money on just acquiring it. Net loss for the non-banking economy.
- kerkeslager 9y ago
  > If you want to see e-commerce as a relevant branch of the economy I don't, and I don't see much evidence that anyone outside the e-commerce industry should want to see that. > Funny enough, banks are now charging withdrawing fees for cash. So if you only ever buy things with cash, you will loose money on just acquiring it. Net loss for the non-banking economy. It's fairly simple to avoid ATM fees. Every bank and credit union I've ever banked at had a network of ATMs, and there's usually no fee for cash back at grocery stores. In contrast, credit cards always charge a fee to the receiving business. Additionally, many workers receive some or all of their pay in cash, cutting banks out of the equation entirely. I don't think you can reasonably claim that credit cards take less from the non- banking economy than cash.
  - arvidkahl 9y ago
    Not in Germany though. Cash salaries don't exists (outside of temp jobs), cash-back from grocery stores is still new and rare. The ATM withdrawal fees are the actual problem, they have been recently introduced, and they happen no matter which network is being used.

FRex 9y ago

Take a hike to Poland if you want to marvel at this tech in action. Paying contactlessly that is. Called "zbliżeniowo" in Polish, that's also the word to say in response to being told the total if you want to use the card without pin and not the cash. It's not universal but extremely common at small shops, super markets, 'better' restaurants. Out of the way places, milk-bars ("bary mleczne", it has nothing to do with milk, it's a cheap place to eat simple foods at), pawn and thrift shops, street vendors, etc. are the majority of ones that don't have it. In Poland such a limit of 10 zlotys is common-ish (I've seen it ONCE in Warsaw when visiting) but will run afoul of agreements terminal owners have with banks and the fees are (I have no idea if that's true, it's hearsay from consumer legal advice websites) percentages not fixed so there is no difference in the end. Of course even if that's true the incentive is there - pure cash has no fees and most people buy little things very often so it adds up.

captainmuon 9y ago

The difference between debit cards and credit cards is not so big and not really relevant. You can do almost everything (domestically) with a debit card that you can do with a credit card in other countries. There are tens or hundreds of thousands of business receiving money already. Wire transfers are ubiquitous, can also be initiated by the vendor after some checking, and have no fees. There are also payment processors who help you as a business. Using cards for small payments, just like large bills, is a bit socially frowned upon, but usually no problem anymore. Compared to the US system, i have almoat nothing to complain about the German system. I sometimes do wonder though why you can't just send money to a telefone number like in China. Like in most countries, banks move slowly here.

thirdsun 9y ago

> Paypal has taken over German online payments, since it can be linked with a bank account. Very true. Whenever payment processors are discussed around here someone will inevitably mention how glad they are that they could finally replace Paypal with Stripe, and why would anyone still use Paypal anyway these days? I like Stripe as much as the next guy, but in Germany it‘s absolutely necessary to offer Paypal and Stripe can only act as an additional gateway. However credit cards are gaining momentum here - the online store of my employer almost sees an equal share between both methods. And then there‘s still about 15-20% of customers who opt for manual SEPA transfer.

germanier 9y ago

The vast majority of German supermarkets accepts credit cards. Aldi even has signs at the cashier telling you it's possible "from the first cent". And that's a store famous for trying to save money wherever it can. If the fees for offering card payment for a store are still extremely high, they are getting ripped off by their acquirer for some time now. But old habits die hard and many sale clerks (and even some store owners) are not aware of the changing reality.