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There's a pretty convincing argument that the drop in apparent interest in computing from girls was caused by computers and computer games being marketed square

There's a pretty convincing argument that the drop in apparent interest in computing from girls was caused by computers and computer games being marketed squarely at boys: https://qz.com/911737/silicon-valleys-gender-gap-is-the-result-of-computer-game-marketing-20-years-ago/ https://qz.com/911737/silicon-valleys-gender-gap-is-the-resu... The arguments that there are fundamental differences between men and women doesn't seem to prevent much higher proportions of female programmers in India, or Romania, or China. As Adam Grant says, while there are some (small) differences between men and women, they're "not biologically determined" https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/differences-between-men-women-vastly-exaggerated-adam-grant https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/differences-between-men-women...

sundvor 9y ago
Back in the 80s, the computers (Vic20s/C64s) sold themselves to my group of friends in grades 4-8; we were not subject to any marketing in Norway. Games were not the primary motivator, BASIC programming was. Alas, I knew no girls who were into this even the slightest.
- richmarr 9y ago
  Sure. I can't speak to what influenced you or friends, or the girls you knew... just that it's not a worldwide phenomenon, and is restricted to CS rather than other STEM fields... so seems to fit. There may be no way to ever know for sure.
depressedpanda 9y ago
> The arguments that there are fundamental differences between men and women doesn't seem to prevent much higher proportions of female programmers in India, or Romania, or China. Suppose that the much higher proportions of female programmers in poorer countries might be because their choice is more limited; there is way more incentive in a poor country to want to land a fairly secure and well paid job, because you risk starving if you don't. Going for a liberal arts degree (or similar) in India, Romania or China would then be discouraged. Conversely, in the West, people are more free to pursue whatever profession they may like, because they most likely won't starve if they do. I'm not saying that this would be the only explanation for the gender gap, but I do think the explanation involves many more factors than 'computer games in the 80s'. I personally think it's naïve to dismiss inherent biological preferences entirely, especially since there are many studies that corroborate that they _do exist_.
- richmarr 9y ago
  Uh huh, there are potential other explanations, yes. Are they evidenced? Not to my knowledge. > I personally think it's naïve to dismiss inherent biological preferences entirely... "naïve", huh... So, Adam Grant is one of the world's foremost experts in this area. Did you read his fully-sourced article, linked from my parent post, that refutes this exact "biological" point?
  - depressedpanda 9y ago
    From the studies I've read it seems clear that there are biological differences between males and females. This was not fashionable to claim 20 or so years ago, but I suspect the dismissal was mostly based in politics, and the current trend in psychology is starting to acknowledge this. The problem is that many people seem to forget that the difference applies to averages, and therefore mean very little on an individual level. In other words, it's not far fetched to assume that a part of the gender gap in STEM/CS is because of biology, since an average trend would influence said gap. Conversely, it's incorrect to claim that a specific woman is more ill-suited doing STEM/CS than a man, just because she's a woman. Also, I didn't go through all the references, but Adam Grant (at least indirectly) cites the 1995 study by Steele & Aronson which has been proved to be of shoddy quality. Like everyone else who denies any possibility of biology influencing how people think, he seems to have a political axe to grind. I therefore consider his opinions somewhat unreliable.
    - ece 9y ago
      Do you have any better studies to cite for what you're saying? Because if you don't you shouldn't be saying what you're saying.
      - depressedpanda 9y ago
        Regarding cognitive differences between men and women having a biological component: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-... Regarding the quality and replicability of stereotype threat studies, that came in vogue after the seminal Steele & Aronson 1995 paper: https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/does-stereotype-threat-influence-performance-of-girls-in-stereotyped-domains-a-meta-analysis/ https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/does-stereotype-t... https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/hidden-figures-replication-failures-in-the-stereotype-threat-literature/ https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/hidden-fig... https://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/12/30/is-stereotype-threat-overcooked-overstated-and-oversold/ https://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/12/30/is-stereotype-threat...

sundvor 9y ago

Back in the 80s, the computers (Vic20s/C64s) sold themselves to my group of friends in grades 4-8; we were not subject to any marketing in Norway. Games were not the primary motivator, BASIC programming was. Alas, I knew no girls who were into this even the slightest.

richmarr 9y ago
Sure. I can't speak to what influenced you or friends, or the girls you knew... just that it's not a worldwide phenomenon, and is restricted to CS rather than other STEM fields... so seems to fit. There may be no way to ever know for sure.

depressedpanda 9y ago

> The arguments that there are fundamental differences between men and women doesn't seem to prevent much higher proportions of female programmers in India, or Romania, or China. Suppose that the much higher proportions of female programmers in poorer countries might be because their choice is more limited; there is way more incentive in a poor country to want to land a fairly secure and well paid job, because you risk starving if you don't. Going for a liberal arts degree (or similar) in India, Romania or China would then be discouraged. Conversely, in the West, people are more free to pursue whatever profession they may like, because they most likely won't starve if they do. I'm not saying that this would be the only explanation for the gender gap, but I do think the explanation involves many more factors than 'computer games in the 80s'. I personally think it's naïve to dismiss inherent biological preferences entirely, especially since there are many studies that corroborate that they _do exist_.

richmarr 9y ago
Uh huh, there are potential other explanations, yes. Are they evidenced? Not to my knowledge. > I personally think it's naïve to dismiss inherent biological preferences entirely... "naïve", huh... So, Adam Grant is one of the world's foremost experts in this area. Did you read his fully-sourced article, linked from my parent post, that refutes this exact "biological" point?
- depressedpanda 9y ago
  From the studies I've read it seems clear that there are biological differences between males and females. This was not fashionable to claim 20 or so years ago, but I suspect the dismissal was mostly based in politics, and the current trend in psychology is starting to acknowledge this. The problem is that many people seem to forget that the difference applies to averages, and therefore mean very little on an individual level. In other words, it's not far fetched to assume that a part of the gender gap in STEM/CS is because of biology, since an average trend would influence said gap. Conversely, it's incorrect to claim that a specific woman is more ill-suited doing STEM/CS than a man, just because she's a woman. Also, I didn't go through all the references, but Adam Grant (at least indirectly) cites the 1995 study by Steele & Aronson which has been proved to be of shoddy quality. Like everyone else who denies any possibility of biology influencing how people think, he seems to have a political axe to grind. I therefore consider his opinions somewhat unreliable.
  - ece 9y ago
    Do you have any better studies to cite for what you're saying? Because if you don't you shouldn't be saying what you're saying.
    - depressedpanda 9y ago
      Regarding cognitive differences between men and women having a biological component: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-... Regarding the quality and replicability of stereotype threat studies, that came in vogue after the seminal Steele & Aronson 1995 paper: https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/does-stereotype-threat-influence-performance-of-girls-in-stereotyped-domains-a-meta-analysis/ https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/tag/does-stereotype-t... https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/hidden-figures-replication-failures-in-the-stereotype-threat-literature/ https://replicationindex.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/hidden-fig... https://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/12/30/is-stereotype-threat-overcooked-overstated-and-oversold/ https://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/12/30/is-stereotype-threat...