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Sure, if you define diversity as having nothing to do with gender, then of course you don't need women to have diversity. And if you define corporate responsib

Sure, if you define diversity as having nothing to do with gender, then of course you don't need women to have diversity. And if you define corporate responsibility as doing only what is needed to put effective people in chairs, then there is no need for diversity programs to meet corporate responsibility (at least, assuming sufficient talent). But your entire comment misses the phenomenon of biases having affected women their entire lives, from what hobbies they were steered towards, to their experiences during education, to their interviewing process, to their working environments after having jobs. These are all part of what gender diversity programs are trying to combat. And honestly, I'd say that this statement right here: > These programs are most likely not responsible for qualified women getting jobs and even if they are they are also responsible for qualified men not getting the jobs so nothing is really gained. is more of a really effective example of the actual problem, and an illustration of why gender diversity programs are needed, than an effective counterpoint against them.

ThomPete 9y ago
Thats not what I said. Of course there is gender diversity in genetics alone, but it's not as important or meaningful as claimed and it's ironically the opposite of what you want it to mean i.e. it's not simply a question of bias against women. Biases are affecting men, women, red haired, young people, old people, gays, lesbians, fat people, short people, people with too much education, people with almost none etc their whole life. Singling out gender is exactly what's so wrong with this whole discussion. Try and get a job in SV after you turn 45. The actual problem if you really want to focus on something that would naturally bring more women into the industry, is that less women start companies or get into tech early on. If you for some reason want to solve the problem of gender diversity, get more women to start a tech company. It's really that simple.
wolfgangK 9y ago
> Sure, if you define diversity as having nothing to do with gender, I would have sworn that this would be "Not being sexist 101", but apparently words do not mean what I think they should…
znfi 9y ago
Honestly, I have a hard time understanding much of these "biases having affected women their entire lives", maybe you could expand on what you mean by the points you bring up. I attempt to clarify why I have a hard time understanding it: "from what hobbies they were steered towards" Ok, but the thing I don't quite understand here is that it's not like men are "steered" towards tech that strongly either. At least when I was young it was not "cool" to be some geek who sat infront of the computer all day, in fact quite the opposite. "to their experiences during education" I'm in Europe and I have no clue how a woman can have a worse experience in the educational system over here. Women tend to perform better in school and I'd to so far as to say that things are probably the other way around. Based on anecdata more "traditional" boys/men are probably very poorly served by the current educational system and there could be much done here. "to their interviewing process, to their working environments after having jobs" Again, I'm rather confused here. Is this some reference to startups? This whole debacle seems to show that women, at least at the larger corporations, has some clear benefits. As anecdata I can add that I've had women tell me "getting an internship at Corp XYZ was very easy, they kept telling me they were looking to hire more women". I've heard a professor comment on hiring new faculty by saying "If we don't hire a woman we have failed", etc.
- mathw 9y ago
  Go to a toy shop. Are there lots of things which are pink with pictures of girls on the boxes, and the boxes contain dolls, horses, cooking things, knitting, sewing and other crafts? Are there boxes with pictures of boys on containing toy guns, cars, trucks, diggers, cranes, computers, science kits? Is there a section for girls' toys and boys' toys? That's your cultural steering of gender roles, right there. Ever seen someone think a particular book isn't "appropriate" for a girl to read? Or another book isn't "something boys will be interested in"? Did the girls grow up seeing women on TV programmes who were scientists, executives, lawyers? Or were those people almost all men? What does that tell them about the world as they watch? Okay so you can argue television should reflect the real world, but in doing so and simultaneously acting as part of a child's education in how the world should be (which you are, whether intentionally or not), your TV programme also acts to perpetuate the status quo. I really don't feel there are any mysteries why we see so much gender segregation in career paths. Similarly: how many people do you know who seriously consider nursing as a viable profession for a man to pursue? What about preschool childcare? Kindergarten teacher? Who cleans your offices? Are they female? All the cleaners in my current office are female. It is not hard to see the cultural pressure on both boys and girls to go in certain directions.

ThomPete 9y ago

Thats not what I said. Of course there is gender diversity in genetics alone, but it's not as important or meaningful as claimed and it's ironically the opposite of what you want it to mean i.e. it's not simply a question of bias against women. Biases are affecting men, women, red haired, young people, old people, gays, lesbians, fat people, short people, people with too much education, people with almost none etc their whole life. Singling out gender is exactly what's so wrong with this whole discussion. Try and get a job in SV after you turn 45. The actual problem if you really want to focus on something that would naturally bring more women into the industry, is that less women start companies or get into tech early on. If you for some reason want to solve the problem of gender diversity, get more women to start a tech company. It's really that simple.

wolfgangK 9y ago

> Sure, if you define diversity as having nothing to do with gender, I would have sworn that this would be "Not being sexist 101", but apparently words do not mean what I think they should…

znfi 9y ago

Honestly, I have a hard time understanding much of these "biases having affected women their entire lives", maybe you could expand on what you mean by the points you bring up. I attempt to clarify why I have a hard time understanding it: "from what hobbies they were steered towards" Ok, but the thing I don't quite understand here is that it's not like men are "steered" towards tech that strongly either. At least when I was young it was not "cool" to be some geek who sat infront of the computer all day, in fact quite the opposite. "to their experiences during education" I'm in Europe and I have no clue how a woman can have a worse experience in the educational system over here. Women tend to perform better in school and I'd to so far as to say that things are probably the other way around. Based on anecdata more "traditional" boys/men are probably very poorly served by the current educational system and there could be much done here. "to their interviewing process, to their working environments after having jobs" Again, I'm rather confused here. Is this some reference to startups? This whole debacle seems to show that women, at least at the larger corporations, has some clear benefits. As anecdata I can add that I've had women tell me "getting an internship at Corp XYZ was very easy, they kept telling me they were looking to hire more women". I've heard a professor comment on hiring new faculty by saying "If we don't hire a woman we have failed", etc.

mathw 9y ago
Go to a toy shop. Are there lots of things which are pink with pictures of girls on the boxes, and the boxes contain dolls, horses, cooking things, knitting, sewing and other crafts? Are there boxes with pictures of boys on containing toy guns, cars, trucks, diggers, cranes, computers, science kits? Is there a section for girls' toys and boys' toys? That's your cultural steering of gender roles, right there. Ever seen someone think a particular book isn't "appropriate" for a girl to read? Or another book isn't "something boys will be interested in"? Did the girls grow up seeing women on TV programmes who were scientists, executives, lawyers? Or were those people almost all men? What does that tell them about the world as they watch? Okay so you can argue television should reflect the real world, but in doing so and simultaneously acting as part of a child's education in how the world should be (which you are, whether intentionally or not), your TV programme also acts to perpetuate the status quo. I really don't feel there are any mysteries why we see so much gender segregation in career paths. Similarly: how many people do you know who seriously consider nursing as a viable profession for a man to pursue? What about preschool childcare? Kindergarten teacher? Who cleans your offices? Are they female? All the cleaners in my current office are female. It is not hard to see the cultural pressure on both boys and girls to go in certain directions.