5 ms·

>>There is STILL a serious need for reservations and affirmative action in my country, but man does it screw with people. I come from the same country. Reserv

by kamaal 9y ago

>>There is STILL a serious need for reservations and affirmative action in my country, but man does it screw with people. I come from the same country. Reservation policy has denied hordes and hordes of exceptionally smart, hardworking and merit people their rightful chance of doing good in life. It continues to. This has been one of the key reasons for mass exodus of these people to foreign lands. The damage is irreversible. Those people are lost for ever. And worst, they do so well outside India that more and more smart people are incentivized to leave the country for the better. The damage to the Indian economy and the STEM ecosystem in India in general is incalculable. Also by and large, at least from the past few decades(of economic boom and social progress) these reservation policies have no meaning at all.

keganunderwood 9y ago
I just wanted to record my position on this because I in no way support what you're saying. I fully support reservation for people who belong to traditionally marginalized communities when it comes to education. The only way you can make me reconsider is to make education free of cost and open to all candidates regardless of merit. However, you do raise a good point. Reservation policy should not extend into the work force. I am more in favor of literal handouts of cash rather than forced diversity in the workplace. Come to think of it, basic income can't come soon enough. I don't mean we need to end diversity programs in the workplace but the way it was explained to me was these were recruitment programs and not hiring programs. Considering gender or caste or color of skin as one of the conditions for employment should be illegal in all nations.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>I fully support reservation for people who belong to traditionally marginalized communities when it comes to education. This was the original vision of the people who designed the reservation system in India. Their idea was some people where so behind in the social strata that merely expecting them to make up on hard work would take it forever to work. But this policy should have some expiry conditions. Else it leads to absurd conditions like it does in India. There are cases where the father is a well earning rich doctor, and the kids still get reservations. There is a guy who has just done his MBBS, and yet he qualifies for reservation for a MD seat. Entry and qualifying marks/percentages are lower for reservation seats, so you have a condition where exceptionally good performers and bad performers are both in the same peer group in a class, and then the bad performing group routinely does bad and loses out. >>Reservation policy should not extend into the work force. Once you create a entitled group of people, you can't succeed them in stopping them from asking special privileges in other places.
- JTrilogy 9y ago
  > Considering gender or caste or color of skin as one of the conditions for employment should be illegal in all nations. Given research showing that the most diverse teams are, on average, more successful than less diverse teams [1], should gender or caste or color still never be considered? People bring more to their workplaces than algorithms and programming languages, their life experiences and worldview can positively influence the whole company. The employer should encourage new ideas, create an environment where everyone feels empowered to contribute, and facilitate education and improvement for all employees. Algorithms, programming languages, technology stacks, etc. can all be taught. The perspective an employee brings to the company can not be taught. I think we would agree that gender, race, and ethnicity are crude proxies for a "unique worldview". There are so many metrics that could be considered: education, location history, age, previous work, hobbies, etc. Even more can be gleaned from a conversation. A good hiring manager should know that too, and should select candidates who truly complement the team, not just check the boxes for race and gender. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
- jorgemf 9y ago
  > The only way you can make me reconsider is to make education free of cost and open to all candidates regardless of merit. This is true for some countries and the problems and solutions are still the same.
tallanvor 9y ago
And how would you right the wrongs that the caste system has done to countless people? Even today people get ostracized because of their supposed caste, even though the system has been illegal for many years. There was even an interview on NPR about this last week: http://www.npr.org/2017/08/05/541844695/ants-among-elephants-examines-family-and-caste-in-india http://www.npr.org/2017/08/05/541844695/ants-among-elephants... - even today people in the US get asked what caste they are. Your "hordes and hordes" who have been denied their "rightful chance of doing good in life" seems more than a little overblown when you compare that to millions of people who were denied the same chance for centuries due to where their families fell in the social chain at one point. Affirmative action policies often seem unfair to the majority, but it's often extremely difficult for that majority to consider just what the minority went through, and how much longer it will take - if it can ever happen - for them to reach parity without policies that recognize that they've been forcefully held back for their entire life, their parents' lives, and so on.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>And how would you right the wrongs that the caste system has done to countless people? The modern day hard working people affiliated to a particular caste be punished generation after generation for a mistake some ancestor of theirs made some 5000 years back? >>Even today people get ostracized because of their supposed caste, even though the system has been illegal for many years. Strictly speaking caste affiliations today are entirely voluntary. You can by all means absolve yourself of any caste/religion. People stick to a particular caste/religion for various reasons many of which are cultural and not because they forced to. Also note caste isn't a binary classification. There are castes that go as deep as farmer, shepherd, cow herder, black smith, cotton weaver, weapon maker etc etc. Some of them do it because of the explicit benefits like reservations that come along with it. >>Your "hordes and hordes" who have been denied their "rightful chance of doing good in life" seems more than a little overblown when you compare that to millions of people who were denied the same chance for centuries due to where their families fell in the social chain at one point. This my experience being born and living in this country for 3 decades of my biological life. The default condition for any body smart and hard working here is 'immigration abroad'. Take any steps from your childhood. Attend any exams(which by the way decide your entire life direction), appear for any government job interview, parliaments seats etc etc. Reservations exist which will ensure many hard working people ever succeed. The system actively brutally punishes smart, hard working merit people to a point most people are driven to migrate foreign lands to get due returns for their work.
saimiam 9y ago
> Reservation policy has denied hordes and hordes of exceptionally smart, hardworking and merit people their rightful chance of doing good in life. It continues to. This has been one of the key reasons for mass exodus of these people to foreign lands. Proof?
- kamaal 9y ago
  Proof is living here in India. Watching year after year, your seniors, neighbors, cousins, class mates, tuition mates, office colleagues burn through insane hours entirety of the whole academic life from childhood till late teenage, working for doing good in exams, scoring the top ranks that there are, and yet being denied seats in professional colleges. The very fact that you ask for proof means you are completely disconnected from the everyday reality of life middle class hard working students face in India every single academic year. Even today I meet freshers at IT companies who have stories of having scored in upwards of 95% aggregate marks, and best rank in competitive exams(JEE, NEET, NATA, CET etc) and lose out an engineering seat to some one who had 35-45% marks.
  - saimiam 9y ago
    Not proof. Sorry but unless you are a social scientist working in the field, what you said here is just hearsay, not proof.
    - kamaal 9y ago
      I won't debate this further with you. In India the reservation debate has reached a point where things like 'citation needed' and 'provide proof' are now largely excuses to cover for pointless spending towards socialist 'rob peter to pay paul' schemes. Some people find reservation apologists so absurd that a debate isn't relevant any more. The problem and pains faced by hardworking kids from middle class families are now beyond complaints. Most people know by now, nobody cares for them and they have to work far more harder than kids who get reservations. The net result is general merit kids are far more competitive and do well on the longer run. Either way I know nothing will change on the ground, because this is large a political issue. And politicians let the system continue because they get votes in return. For merit people the path is very simple, move out as the system doesn't reward you. There are better places on earth to contribute and build your career.
denzil_correa 9y ago
According to Census 2011, 4% of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes (STs) - minorities who benefit this reservation - have a government job [0]. They form 25% of the population [1]. [0] http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/census-counts-just-4-sc-st-families-with-a-member-in-a-govt-job/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/census-c... [1] http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/scs-sts-form-25--of-population-says-census-2011-data/1109988/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/scs-sts-form-25--of-po...
- kamaal 9y ago
  Firstly reservations exist beyond SCs and STs. There are a whole variety of people who get reservations. So that number is way higher. We are talking of problems General Merit people face here. Secondly, you are making the same mistake, we generally do in India while comparing these things. Comparing human ingenuity one-one. A good merit performer can contribute way more disproportionately compared to a bad performer. Lastly you don't mention the problem of filling up mandatory quotas. Where you can't allocate seats to general merit folks until all reservation quotas are exhausted. In Karnataka this problem was so serious back in the day, the general merit seat counseling used to happen at very last after each reserved category exhausted their picks. The resultant situation was so bizarre. It was literally the best students in the entire state had to pick up leftovers, while people who had performed way worse took plum picks. I remember during our first Math lecture in the first semester, some of us used to solve problems way ahead of the remaining class. Our professor used to remark the general merit candidates in the class were basically the top ranking students who had missed out on top colleges and the performance difference in the peer group was already showing, and will continue to show in the future.

by kamaal 9y ago

keganunderwood 9y ago

I just wanted to record my position on this because I in no way support what you're saying. I fully support reservation for people who belong to traditionally marginalized communities when it comes to education. The only way you can make me reconsider is to make education free of cost and open to all candidates regardless of merit. However, you do raise a good point. Reservation policy should not extend into the work force. I am more in favor of literal handouts of cash rather than forced diversity in the workplace. Come to think of it, basic income can't come soon enough. I don't mean we need to end diversity programs in the workplace but the way it was explained to me was these were recruitment programs and not hiring programs. Considering gender or caste or color of skin as one of the conditions for employment should be illegal in all nations.

kamaal 9y ago
>>I fully support reservation for people who belong to traditionally marginalized communities when it comes to education. This was the original vision of the people who designed the reservation system in India. Their idea was some people where so behind in the social strata that merely expecting them to make up on hard work would take it forever to work. But this policy should have some expiry conditions. Else it leads to absurd conditions like it does in India. There are cases where the father is a well earning rich doctor, and the kids still get reservations. There is a guy who has just done his MBBS, and yet he qualifies for reservation for a MD seat. Entry and qualifying marks/percentages are lower for reservation seats, so you have a condition where exceptionally good performers and bad performers are both in the same peer group in a class, and then the bad performing group routinely does bad and loses out. >>Reservation policy should not extend into the work force. Once you create a entitled group of people, you can't succeed them in stopping them from asking special privileges in other places.
JTrilogy 9y ago
> Considering gender or caste or color of skin as one of the conditions for employment should be illegal in all nations. Given research showing that the most diverse teams are, on average, more successful than less diverse teams [1], should gender or caste or color still never be considered? People bring more to their workplaces than algorithms and programming languages, their life experiences and worldview can positively influence the whole company. The employer should encourage new ideas, create an environment where everyone feels empowered to contribute, and facilitate education and improvement for all employees. Algorithms, programming languages, technology stacks, etc. can all be taught. The perspective an employee brings to the company can not be taught. I think we would agree that gender, race, and ethnicity are crude proxies for a "unique worldview". There are so many metrics that could be considered: education, location history, age, previous work, hobbies, etc. Even more can be gleaned from a conversation. A good hiring manager should know that too, and should select candidates who truly complement the team, not just check the boxes for race and gender. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
jorgemf 9y ago
> The only way you can make me reconsider is to make education free of cost and open to all candidates regardless of merit. This is true for some countries and the problems and solutions are still the same.

tallanvor 9y ago

And how would you right the wrongs that the caste system has done to countless people? Even today people get ostracized because of their supposed caste, even though the system has been illegal for many years. There was even an interview on NPR about this last week: http://www.npr.org/2017/08/05/541844695/ants-among-elephants-examines-family-and-caste-in-india http://www.npr.org/2017/08/05/541844695/ants-among-elephants... - even today people in the US get asked what caste they are. Your "hordes and hordes" who have been denied their "rightful chance of doing good in life" seems more than a little overblown when you compare that to millions of people who were denied the same chance for centuries due to where their families fell in the social chain at one point. Affirmative action policies often seem unfair to the majority, but it's often extremely difficult for that majority to consider just what the minority went through, and how much longer it will take - if it can ever happen - for them to reach parity without policies that recognize that they've been forcefully held back for their entire life, their parents' lives, and so on.

kamaal 9y ago
>>And how would you right the wrongs that the caste system has done to countless people? The modern day hard working people affiliated to a particular caste be punished generation after generation for a mistake some ancestor of theirs made some 5000 years back? >>Even today people get ostracized because of their supposed caste, even though the system has been illegal for many years. Strictly speaking caste affiliations today are entirely voluntary. You can by all means absolve yourself of any caste/religion. People stick to a particular caste/religion for various reasons many of which are cultural and not because they forced to. Also note caste isn't a binary classification. There are castes that go as deep as farmer, shepherd, cow herder, black smith, cotton weaver, weapon maker etc etc. Some of them do it because of the explicit benefits like reservations that come along with it. >>Your "hordes and hordes" who have been denied their "rightful chance of doing good in life" seems more than a little overblown when you compare that to millions of people who were denied the same chance for centuries due to where their families fell in the social chain at one point. This my experience being born and living in this country for 3 decades of my biological life. The default condition for any body smart and hard working here is 'immigration abroad'. Take any steps from your childhood. Attend any exams(which by the way decide your entire life direction), appear for any government job interview, parliaments seats etc etc. Reservations exist which will ensure many hard working people ever succeed. The system actively brutally punishes smart, hard working merit people to a point most people are driven to migrate foreign lands to get due returns for their work.

saimiam 9y ago

> Reservation policy has denied hordes and hordes of exceptionally smart, hardworking and merit people their rightful chance of doing good in life. It continues to. This has been one of the key reasons for mass exodus of these people to foreign lands. Proof?

kamaal 9y ago
Proof is living here in India. Watching year after year, your seniors, neighbors, cousins, class mates, tuition mates, office colleagues burn through insane hours entirety of the whole academic life from childhood till late teenage, working for doing good in exams, scoring the top ranks that there are, and yet being denied seats in professional colleges. The very fact that you ask for proof means you are completely disconnected from the everyday reality of life middle class hard working students face in India every single academic year. Even today I meet freshers at IT companies who have stories of having scored in upwards of 95% aggregate marks, and best rank in competitive exams(JEE, NEET, NATA, CET etc) and lose out an engineering seat to some one who had 35-45% marks.
- saimiam 9y ago
  Not proof. Sorry but unless you are a social scientist working in the field, what you said here is just hearsay, not proof.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    I won't debate this further with you. In India the reservation debate has reached a point where things like 'citation needed' and 'provide proof' are now largely excuses to cover for pointless spending towards socialist 'rob peter to pay paul' schemes. Some people find reservation apologists so absurd that a debate isn't relevant any more. The problem and pains faced by hardworking kids from middle class families are now beyond complaints. Most people know by now, nobody cares for them and they have to work far more harder than kids who get reservations. The net result is general merit kids are far more competitive and do well on the longer run. Either way I know nothing will change on the ground, because this is large a political issue. And politicians let the system continue because they get votes in return. For merit people the path is very simple, move out as the system doesn't reward you. There are better places on earth to contribute and build your career.

denzil_correa 9y ago

According to Census 2011, 4% of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes (STs) - minorities who benefit this reservation - have a government job [0]. They form 25% of the population [1]. [0] http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/census-counts-just-4-sc-st-families-with-a-member-in-a-govt-job/ http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/census-c... [1] http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/scs-sts-form-25--of-population-says-census-2011-data/1109988/ http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/scs-sts-form-25--of-po...

kamaal 9y ago
Firstly reservations exist beyond SCs and STs. There are a whole variety of people who get reservations. So that number is way higher. We are talking of problems General Merit people face here. Secondly, you are making the same mistake, we generally do in India while comparing these things. Comparing human ingenuity one-one. A good merit performer can contribute way more disproportionately compared to a bad performer. Lastly you don't mention the problem of filling up mandatory quotas. Where you can't allocate seats to general merit folks until all reservation quotas are exhausted. In Karnataka this problem was so serious back in the day, the general merit seat counseling used to happen at very last after each reserved category exhausted their picks. The resultant situation was so bizarre. It was literally the best students in the entire state had to pick up leftovers, while people who had performed way worse took plum picks. I remember during our first Math lecture in the first semester, some of us used to solve problems way ahead of the remaining class. Our professor used to remark the general merit candidates in the class were basically the top ranking students who had missed out on top colleges and the performance difference in the peer group was already showing, and will continue to show in the future.