4 ms·

Extra discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q433o/percentage_of_europeans_who_are_willing_to_fight https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q

Extra discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q433o/percentage_of_europeans_who_are_willing_to_fight https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/5q433o/percentage_... I am really curious about a more thourough breakdown of these numbers. I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives.

JPLeRouzic 9y ago
> I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives. Often (a bad qualifier) immigrants (an ill-defined word) want to prove their willingness to integrate their hosting society much more than native that take things for granted (a very variable behavior depending on cultures).
Hasknewbie 9y ago
Counterpoint: during the occupation of France by the Nazis, a disproportionate amount of the French resistance were immigrants[1]. In fact the second (after Jean Moulin) most famous group that was caught was the "Manouchian network", whose members were almost all immigrants. Likewise the Free French Forces (i.e. French military who refused to surrender in 1940) operating under British command were at least two-third colonials and/or immigrants. [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-real-story-of-the-french-resistance http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-real-story-of-the-french-re...
- barking 9y ago
  Controversially and OT but it was in a documentary I saw recently. It's been suggested that the colonial troops were responsible for the the vast majority of the large numbers of rapes of women in the French occupied part of Germany
  - Hasknewbie 9y ago
    Unless that documentary is backed up with hard data, I would dispute that "vast majority" claim based on the following: * About two-third of the FFF were West African, so if that was true there would have been at least a very noticeable small 'epidemic' of black babies in West Germany. (EDIT: apparently that ratio fell to 2/5th in mid-1944, after Vichy fell and the 'new' French government was able to draft a lot more people.) * The FFF were non-segregated, it would seem odd that only 2 out of 3 dudes in any random squad would take part in this, but not the third guy? In any case it would make it much more complicated to keep those events under wrap , which matters because... * ...More importantly: ALL officers/cadres were white, and I do not think they would have allowed non-whites to have a go at white women, that would have crossed a line. The racial world-view was still very much a thing. * The FFF were in much lower numbers than the US and Commonwealth armies (after all France had just come out of complete occupation), so I doubt they would have been able to do disproportionate damage on that front. * Also, the "French occupied part of Germany" did not in fact exist until sometime in 1946, when the US & UK (sort of retroactively) created the "French Zone" to have 3 Western powers in Germany and counter the USSR influence. By that time I believe a large number of colonial troops had been sent back home (where, in fact, many of them took part in local independentist movements to end their occupation -- troubles in the French colonies started brewing as soon as mid-1945). That being said, the scale of the rapes committed by the Allies has been a big taboo until a few years ago (except, famously, for the Russian army, since they were very quickly moved into a different category, "not-so-much-Allies-any-more", so it was OK to report that they raped their way to Berlin), and current evidences indicate that the allies also took part in war-rapes, a lot, and not just in Germany. So if the statement was "FFF did commit a large number of rapes", I would say: yes they probably did, all armies did it.
    - barking 9y ago
      I can't contradict you, you clearly are better informed than me. It was in a documentary about the end of the war and its aftermath, in Germany. It did also mention the rapes by Russian soldiers and then it singled out the French areas in the West. I am not sure why it mentioned colonial soldiers in particular but it did. I may have exaggerated when I said 'vast majority', I can't remember the exact words. They interviewed a doctor who carried out abortions and he mentioned that the situation of the girls he came into contact with was very bad. The impression I came away with was that it was the soldiers from the countries that were invaded by Germany that let their soldiers have free rein when it came to rape. In the British area there was a lot of 'liberation' ie looting but no mention of rape. Also one british soldier mentioned that the british administrators were a mixed lot with many having an 'eye for the main chance'. The American sector wasn't mentioned at all except to contrast it with the British one where there was no end of bureaucracy and where there were five times the number of administrators.
justin66 9y ago
> I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives. Many, many immigrants serve in the US armed forces. Some move to the front of the line to earn their citizenship that way, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the kind of people who are attracted to living in the US also relate to the idea of military service. It's understandable that it would work differently in Europe. Most of those countries definitely have a different "brand," as it were...

JPLeRouzic 9y ago

> I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives. Often (a bad qualifier) immigrants (an ill-defined word) want to prove their willingness to integrate their hosting society much more than native that take things for granted (a very variable behavior depending on cultures).

Hasknewbie 9y ago

Counterpoint: during the occupation of France by the Nazis, a disproportionate amount of the French resistance were immigrants[1]. In fact the second (after Jean Moulin) most famous group that was caught was the "Manouchian network", whose members were almost all immigrants. Likewise the Free French Forces (i.e. French military who refused to surrender in 1940) operating under British command were at least two-third colonials and/or immigrants. [1] http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-real-story-of-the-french-resistance http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-real-story-of-the-french-re...

barking 9y ago
Controversially and OT but it was in a documentary I saw recently. It's been suggested that the colonial troops were responsible for the the vast majority of the large numbers of rapes of women in the French occupied part of Germany
- Hasknewbie 9y ago
  Unless that documentary is backed up with hard data, I would dispute that "vast majority" claim based on the following: * About two-third of the FFF were West African, so if that was true there would have been at least a very noticeable small 'epidemic' of black babies in West Germany. (EDIT: apparently that ratio fell to 2/5th in mid-1944, after Vichy fell and the 'new' French government was able to draft a lot more people.) * The FFF were non-segregated, it would seem odd that only 2 out of 3 dudes in any random squad would take part in this, but not the third guy? In any case it would make it much more complicated to keep those events under wrap , which matters because... * ...More importantly: ALL officers/cadres were white, and I do not think they would have allowed non-whites to have a go at white women, that would have crossed a line. The racial world-view was still very much a thing. * The FFF were in much lower numbers than the US and Commonwealth armies (after all France had just come out of complete occupation), so I doubt they would have been able to do disproportionate damage on that front. * Also, the "French occupied part of Germany" did not in fact exist until sometime in 1946, when the US & UK (sort of retroactively) created the "French Zone" to have 3 Western powers in Germany and counter the USSR influence. By that time I believe a large number of colonial troops had been sent back home (where, in fact, many of them took part in local independentist movements to end their occupation -- troubles in the French colonies started brewing as soon as mid-1945). That being said, the scale of the rapes committed by the Allies has been a big taboo until a few years ago (except, famously, for the Russian army, since they were very quickly moved into a different category, "not-so-much-Allies-any-more", so it was OK to report that they raped their way to Berlin), and current evidences indicate that the allies also took part in war-rapes, a lot, and not just in Germany. So if the statement was "FFF did commit a large number of rapes", I would say: yes they probably did, all armies did it.
  - barking 9y ago
    I can't contradict you, you clearly are better informed than me. It was in a documentary about the end of the war and its aftermath, in Germany. It did also mention the rapes by Russian soldiers and then it singled out the French areas in the West. I am not sure why it mentioned colonial soldiers in particular but it did. I may have exaggerated when I said 'vast majority', I can't remember the exact words. They interviewed a doctor who carried out abortions and he mentioned that the situation of the girls he came into contact with was very bad. The impression I came away with was that it was the soldiers from the countries that were invaded by Germany that let their soldiers have free rein when it came to rape. In the British area there was a lot of 'liberation' ie looting but no mention of rape. Also one british soldier mentioned that the british administrators were a mixed lot with many having an 'eye for the main chance'. The American sector wasn't mentioned at all except to contrast it with the British one where there was no end of bureaucracy and where there were five times the number of administrators.

justin66 9y ago

> I doubt immigrants would have the same interest in war as the natives. Many, many immigrants serve in the US armed forces. Some move to the front of the line to earn their citizenship that way, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the kind of people who are attracted to living in the US also relate to the idea of military service. It's understandable that it would work differently in Europe. Most of those countries definitely have a different "brand," as it were...