4 ms·

Belgian here, as a resident of one of the bottom 3 countries I have to say I thought about this question myself a few times in the past. Even though I would nev

by ddnb 9y ago

Belgian here, as a resident of one of the bottom 3 countries I have to say I thought about this question myself a few times in the past. Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage. So to this question I would have to answer 'no' even though that doesn't mean I'd give up on my country.

hjrnunes 9y ago
So you wouldn't risk your life but you would risk your family's, friend's and colleagues instead?
- hjrnunes 9y ago
  To clarify - sabotage implies real risks to everyone around you, because it's hard to find the saboteur and it normally entices collective punishment. I find it difficult to understand why one wouldn't want to join a fighting force to "fight wars", but would be happy in operating clandestinely.
INTPenis 9y ago
Yes exactly. And also the question "Would you fight for your Country" is silly to me because I wouldn't fight for a country or nation. I would happily fight for my family or my people but the country is just an authority to me. For example if the roman empire would invade and bring roads, a type of democracy and bureaucracy I maybe would not pick up arms to depose them.
charlesdm 9y ago
Belgian too, but would personally never join the army. I would however, find a way to relocate myself + loved ones to a more safer place. I would totally give up on this country. Home is where you hang your hat, and being with the people you care about (and knowing that they are safe) matters a lot more than some border on a map.
- lorenzfx 9y ago
  I am very glad that your and a lot of other people's ancestors didn't think like that or we would probably all live under a fascist regime. edit: a word
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Definitely grateful for the sacrifices that have been made in the past, but I'm looking at things based on how the world is set up today. It has become a much smaller place -- people and capital can move around more easily. I've personally never had a very strong national identity (others do seem to have that), and I think in part it's because it has become so easy to move around. And if you travel a bit, you realise people are actually not all that different. A lot of them have similar priorities: build out a good life, raise children, care for their friends and loved ones, have fun, etc.
    - lorenzfx 9y ago
      I'm not saying that you are wrong (and I really hope you are right), but the European elites had exactly the same perception before the outbreak of World War I. Google "first globalization".
  - markvdb 9y ago
    Somewhat related, I have noticed there seems to be an abstraction that is often easier for Belgians to make. One can at the same time make a stand for $GOOD_THING/against $BAD_THING ánd have zero country loyalty/patriotism. It's easier and more efficient even, because unbound by country loyalty, one is less limited in how to make a stand. Do you have difficulties imagining this? Imagine yourself in the era that shall not be named for fear of Godwin's law. Think of ways to make a difference back then.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  " loved ones to a more safer place." The trouble arises when there are no more safe places, or when you along with millions of other people are desperately trying to get to said safer place (note the refugees currently in limbo in Turkey and elsewhere) Where would you go when Western Europe is invaded? New Zealand? North Africa? The former is hard to get to, and any trouble befalling Europe could spread to the latter. With Pax Americana coming to an end I think a lot of people who've had the luxury of forgetting that power and force are a thing will be cruelly reminded of it. It's hard to maintain a liberal democratic utopia when your neighbor's tanks are rolling through.
taway_1212 9y ago
> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage When under foreign attack, you don't join the army - the army "joins" (conscripts) you. It's not voluntary.
- gasof 9y ago
  Unless you're female.
ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
>> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars... ok, so obv a hypothetical scenario - some other country invades Belgium, your country starts drafting ppl into the army to defend itself - you saying you're going to evade the draft? Why?
- rjprins 9y ago
  Depends on the invader? What if it's the USA "liberating" Belgium from it's evil government? Who says the current government is better than the one taking over? What are countries anyway, most of them don't align with cultural or language barriers. Fuck patriotism, fuck flags, fuck any tribalism that powerful people are using to get others to do what they want.
  - ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
    HN is probably not the best place/format to have an in-depth "ideological" discussion but I'll just throw this out there - the aggressive invading side doesn't care about your feelings or affiliations. There are situations where you'll either have to flee or fight or surrender (which basically means giving up your way of life, becoming a 2nd class citizen at best etc).

by ddnb 9y ago

hjrnunes 9y ago

So you wouldn't risk your life but you would risk your family's, friend's and colleagues instead?

hjrnunes 9y ago
To clarify - sabotage implies real risks to everyone around you, because it's hard to find the saboteur and it normally entices collective punishment. I find it difficult to understand why one wouldn't want to join a fighting force to "fight wars", but would be happy in operating clandestinely.

INTPenis 9y ago

Yes exactly. And also the question "Would you fight for your Country" is silly to me because I wouldn't fight for a country or nation. I would happily fight for my family or my people but the country is just an authority to me. For example if the roman empire would invade and bring roads, a type of democracy and bureaucracy I maybe would not pick up arms to depose them.

charlesdm 9y ago

Belgian too, but would personally never join the army. I would however, find a way to relocate myself + loved ones to a more safer place. I would totally give up on this country. Home is where you hang your hat, and being with the people you care about (and knowing that they are safe) matters a lot more than some border on a map.

lorenzfx 9y ago
I am very glad that your and a lot of other people's ancestors didn't think like that or we would probably all live under a fascist regime. edit: a word
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Definitely grateful for the sacrifices that have been made in the past, but I'm looking at things based on how the world is set up today. It has become a much smaller place -- people and capital can move around more easily. I've personally never had a very strong national identity (others do seem to have that), and I think in part it's because it has become so easy to move around. And if you travel a bit, you realise people are actually not all that different. A lot of them have similar priorities: build out a good life, raise children, care for their friends and loved ones, have fun, etc.
  - lorenzfx 9y ago
    I'm not saying that you are wrong (and I really hope you are right), but the European elites had exactly the same perception before the outbreak of World War I. Google "first globalization".
- markvdb 9y ago
  Somewhat related, I have noticed there seems to be an abstraction that is often easier for Belgians to make. One can at the same time make a stand for $GOOD_THING/against $BAD_THING ánd have zero country loyalty/patriotism. It's easier and more efficient even, because unbound by country loyalty, one is less limited in how to make a stand. Do you have difficulties imagining this? Imagine yourself in the era that shall not be named for fear of Godwin's law. Think of ways to make a difference back then.
CalRobert 9y ago
" loved ones to a more safer place." The trouble arises when there are no more safe places, or when you along with millions of other people are desperately trying to get to said safer place (note the refugees currently in limbo in Turkey and elsewhere) Where would you go when Western Europe is invaded? New Zealand? North Africa? The former is hard to get to, and any trouble befalling Europe could spread to the latter. With Pax Americana coming to an end I think a lot of people who've had the luxury of forgetting that power and force are a thing will be cruelly reminded of it. It's hard to maintain a liberal democratic utopia when your neighbor's tanks are rolling through.

taway_1212 9y ago

> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars, should an occupation come I would do everything in my power to resist and sabotage When under foreign attack, you don't join the army - the army "joins" (conscripts) you. It's not voluntary.

gasof 9y ago
Unless you're female.

ChemicalWarfare 9y ago

>> Even though I would never join the army to fight wars... ok, so obv a hypothetical scenario - some other country invades Belgium, your country starts drafting ppl into the army to defend itself - you saying you're going to evade the draft? Why?

rjprins 9y ago
Depends on the invader? What if it's the USA "liberating" Belgium from it's evil government? Who says the current government is better than the one taking over? What are countries anyway, most of them don't align with cultural or language barriers. Fuck patriotism, fuck flags, fuck any tribalism that powerful people are using to get others to do what they want.
- ChemicalWarfare 9y ago
  HN is probably not the best place/format to have an in-depth "ideological" discussion but I'll just throw this out there - the aggressive invading side doesn't care about your feelings or affiliations. There are situations where you'll either have to flee or fight or surrender (which basically means giving up your way of life, becoming a 2nd class citizen at best etc).