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Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and
by eagsalazar2 9y ago
Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide.
Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay Area 2017 and you just can't say shit like that" then just waited out the controversy, this would have all been dead and gone by next week. Now it has turned into all out rage fest on both sides.
Franky I see this as one Google's biggest screw ups. The worst anyone can say about his "scree" (give me a break) is that the guy was wrong and suffers from unconscious biases. Otherwise he was fairly civil and for this he is publicly and viciously crucified and demonized then thrown under a bus by Google. The butt-hurt right is going to have a never ending field day with this. It will be Benghazi of white male boo-hooing for the next 10 years.
- pducks32 9y agoI agree. These topics turn all of us (it’s one thing we all have un common) into savages. Obviosuly no one shoukd feel discriminated against at work or feel harassed, and yes everyone shoukd have the right to speak about their opinions in a non-violent or threatening way, but the only way this is getting any better people is if we relax and speak not to a whole community but to one person like you are suggesting. You know just say, “come on dude cool it please”
- zimpenfish 9y ago> yes everyone shoukd have the right to speak about their opinions in a non-violent or threatening way Why? And where do you draw the line of what's non-violent or non-threatening? Because to you that line is, say, X=96 whilst the person sat next to you has it at X=45. Other desk over, Bill, with PTSD, has it at X=12. Where do -you- put the line?
- pducks32 9y agoWell that’s not really my point. I’m simple saying no one should feel threatened and if someone does then that is their line. Whether that is an appropriate line isn’t for me to say, I cannot speak for other people. And it’s up to the company or whomever to decide when a comment becomes unproductive. I’m not saying there’s some simple answer, I wish people would stop looking for one. Life is kinda dynamic and blurry; there are 7 billion different people on this earth!
- zimpenfish 9y agoBut why does your right to say your opinion out loud trump someone else's right not to feel threatened or harassed? That's what you're basically saying with "no one should feel threatened and if someone does then that is their line".
- DannyBee 9y agoThis viewpoint completely ignores the internal consequences of doing what you suggest. It's in fact, very strange to me to simply assert "they got it wrong" without even knowing the internal state of affairs well enough, which, from what i can tell, you wouldn't (I googled and linkedin searched pretty hard, so if you do work there, my apologies!). There was also clearly no winning externally no matter what they did. It would not have been dead and gone as long as their was a narrative to be used by someone!
- eagsalazar2 9y agoPeople who are admitted to jobs or universities via affirmative action but don't think this raises questions in the minds of people they work with are living in a fantasy land. Having said that yeah people mostly live in fantasy lands and this guy disrupted that suspension of disbelief at least in his one case which makes him a tough commodity to deal with internally. But firing him wasn't required and was grossly unethical. They should have just let him sleep in the bed he shit in and he probably would have been gone within a few weeks anyway. Now the guy is a goddamn martyr to the butthurt-white-male party.
- DannyBee 9y ago"But firing him wasn't required and was grossly unethical. " Gonna leave this one alone, but ... "hey should have just let him sleep in the bed he shit in and he probably would have been gone within a few weeks anyway." Again, this assumes a lot about what would have happened internally in that time period. If, for example, 1000 good engineers quit out of frustration with lack of response, ... Somehow, I have a distinct feeling, based on what you've written in this thread, that your response would be "fuck'em, let them go whine elsewhere"
- eagsalazar2 9y agoThis is what happens when you allow bad culture to fester for too long. There is no easy way out and debts will have to be paid on one side or the other. This will hurt google's hiring and they will lose people over this either way. The real question is what is the culture they want to have after the dust settles? Currently they have chosen one of PC orthodoxy and suppression of alternative views.
- puranjay 9y agoThey did screw up. But this guy had to be fired. Not because they had to make an example out of him, but because by publicly sharing his biases, he's ensured that a large part of Google wouldn't want to work with him. It's a team sport after all.
- Houshalter 9y agoThere's an internal survey at Google that shows about 40% of employees agree with him. They are just rightfully scared of speaking out.
- empressplay 9y ago*Citation needed
- eagsalazar2 9y agoNow there are 40% of people at google who can't sleep tonight because their blood is boiling and won't stop boiling for a long time.
- zbraniecki 9y agocan you cite the source? Because this sounds very unbelievable to me. I work in a mid-size company structured in many ways similarly to Google and I cannot imagine a representative survey with results already coming up. Google has close to 70k employees. What was the sample? How selected? How representative? It sounds very questionable,
- icelancer 9y agoSource data here. Who knows if it is representative, but 282 anonymous respondents have chimed in. The distribution looks like what I would expect. https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/google-manifesto-blacklists.h...
- DannyBee 9y ago
- Kluny 9y ago> The worst anyone can say about his "screed" (give me a break) is that the guy was wrong and suffers from unconscious biases. Otherwise he was fairly civil and for this he is publicly and viciously crucified and demonized then thrown under a bus by Google. 100% agree. So much of the commentary on it reads like the writer either didn't read the memo or willfully misunderstood it. I don't agree with the memo either, but holy shit, people's reactions are so over the top.
- boyce 9y agoI don't think the worst is his being wrong and biased but that rather than discuss his concerns in a sensible way (i.e. quietly and with someone in a position to set him right on the diversity issue) he has caused a shitstorm by making this document so widely available. Perhaps it's a failing of culture at Google that he didn't have a better way to express his concerns and have them addressed.
- Kluny 9y agoI'm willing to bet there was a better way to do it. He probably just got impatient that he wasn't getting quick enough response, or the response he wanted, through those channels. Anyway, doing something that makes the company look so bad on such a scale as this would be grounds for firing no matter what it was about.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoWhat really makes Google "bad on such a scale" is actually firing the guy and thereby confirming his "echo chamber" point.
- Kluny 9y agoWould you want that guy on your team? I wouldn't.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
- eagsalazar2 9y agoI can't imagine the rage this has unleashed within google. Google will be fundamentally fractured internally because of this one decision.
- floatingatoll 9y agoGoogle was fundamentally fractured and didn’t know it. Now they know it. At least that’s a start.
- vl 9y agoNay, Google was already fractured after Trump election TGIF and last holiday gift. It's popcorn time now.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoWhat rage? Google is now showing in cold blood how the opposition is silenced. There will be no rage, everyone will be politely quiet out of fear.
- flukus 9y agoAppeasement also doesn't work on the type of people that were calling for his head. Soon they'll be demanding that anyone that shared the document internally be fired, then they be calling for everyone that agrees with it to be fired. This is just the start of the witch hunt that will follow.
- NaliSauce 9y ago>hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay Area 2017 and you just can't say shit like that You make the Bay Area sound like a somewhat dystopian, closed and repressive place. Is it really like that?
- odbol_ 9y agoI would count rows upon rows of homeless people in tents on the sidewalk next to where self-driving cars zoom by as pretty dystopian.
- Fluid_Mechanics 9y agoHow many years until Robocop?
- GauntletWizard 9y agoIf you want to see true evil in the world, look at people trying to do good in SF. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" has never been so apt.
- DannyBee 9y agoIt's funny, i had a discussion about this unrelated to the Google stuff tonight. It's definitely a cultural bubble (as is california in general, to generalize for a second). Whether you believe the bubble is closed and repressive or open and progressive depends on your point of view. IE California considers itself open and progressive, and cultural bubbles in the US as closed and repressive. Those cultural bubbles consider California closed and repressive, and themselves open and progressive.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- DonHopkins 9y agoAt least Google threw him under a bus instead of running him over with a private car.
- libeclipse 9y ago> Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay Area 2017 and you just can't say shit like that" then just waited out the controversy, this would have all been dead and gone by next week. Now it has turned into all out rage fest on both sides. Completely agree. I mean, alright, so the guy had a politically incorrect opinion. He isn't a raging fanatic, just allow it.
- foolrush 9y agoPosting a manifesto on medicalization / biological essentialism isn't fanatical? I am absolutely stunned at how few sociologists are at Google that permit these sorts of toxic conceptual models to not simply exist, but come to fruition in such a crazy way. It speaks volumes that someone would be so comfortable as to post such a destructive piece of poorly educated tripe.
- stefantheard 9y agoIt's mind blowing that this interpretation has gotten of the memo has been repeated over and over throughout this comment section with no effort to provide any proof or explanation as to why you would get this out of it. I don't agree with the guy either but how do you get "biological essentialism" out of it?
- Aunche 9y agoHonestly, I think they made the correct business decision. Even in this thread, those who think the author should be rightfully fired are the ones who use more hostile language, and his firing is meant to placate them.