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I don't know the reason why women are not interested in tech. I think there is an important biological component and also a cultural issue. But I am not sure of

I don't know the reason why women are not interested in tech. I think there is an important biological component and also a cultural issue. But I am not sure of the cultural issue because in countries like Norway, one of the most equality countries, the ratios are higher than other countries, which doesn't make sense unless the biological factor is what affects the most.

zimpenfish 9y ago
> I don't know the reason why women are not interested in tech. Dumb frat bros writing 10 page screeds about how they're not fit for the job because they're biologically conditioned to work with people and not machines -might- have something to do with it. And, as a historical point, until the late 60s, software development was seen as "women's work". Which somewhat destroys any "biological component" nonsense.
- tzs 9y ago
  You misunderstand the biological component argument, I think. It's not that men are massively more suited to some jobs and women are massively more suited to some jobs. It's that for some abilities the the center of the wide bell curve for men is not at the same place as the center of the wide bell curve for women. For example, for verbal abilities the female bell curve is a little to the right of the male bell curve. For spatial abilities, it is the other way around. Does this mean men cannot be excellent writers, and women cannot be excellent mechanical engineers? No. It just means that if all else were equal, we would expect writing and mechanical engineering to have gender distributions that don't match the general population.
  - exomancer 9y ago
    I think you are also misjudging the effects, and to talk about ability is harmful to the very debate. There are some differences in ability, but they seem to even themselves out (men are better at mental rotation, women have better visual memory, etc.), the total effect on general intelligence appears to be none. However, there are measurable psychological differences when it comes to preference of the role you want to take, how much risk you are willing to take, and what your priorities regarding status and family are, and we do have evidence that some of it is, at least partially, biological.
- collyw 9y ago
  In Europe we don't (seem to) have the fratboy culture, but there are still very few women in tech. (Regarding race, certain groups seem to be overrepresented and others underrepresented) its mainly white guys, but Europe is mainly white.
  - kenjackson 9y ago
    Fratboy culture is just the latest manifestation of racism/sexism. Last I checked Europe had its fair share of issues there.
    - collyw 9y ago
      So Europe is racist and sexist? Sounds like that's what you are getting at.
      - kenjackson 9y ago
        I was saying that the fratboy culture wasn't a prerequisite for racism and sexism. And that Europe has their own issues with both. Or do you disagree?
- Sacho 9y ago
  Until the late 60s, "programming" had very little to do with the "software development" that bloomed in the 70s. Interestingly, "dumb frat bros" are somehow not affected by people calling them that and manage to fight through the emotional pain and still achieve their dreams of being in tech. I've noted a very large group of people react negatively to the person who wrote the memo, writing insults(like "dumb frat bro"), demanding he be fired, threatening him with violence, the whole shebang. Unless I'm missing something, you seem to be implying that women are inferior to "dumb frat bros" because the "dumb frat bros" seem to be better at handling other people trying to bring them down.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > Interestingly, "dumb frat bros" are somehow not affected by people calling them that and manage to fight through the emotional pain and still achieve their dreams of being in tech Yes, almost as if the entire system was heavily weighted in their favour! > Unless I'm missing something, you seem to be implying [something I wasn't even vaguely implying but makes a good false point to try and hang a specious argument on] Does that tactic ever work for you in arguments? > demanding he be fired He demonstrated -in spades- that he wasn't capable of being a professional team player within that environment. > threatening him with violence That is too far and wholly wrong to do.
    - Sacho 9y ago
      > Yes, almost as if the entire system was heavily weighted in their favour! "The entire system"? Is this system like the Matrix, or is it governed by people? How did a "dumb frat bro" ever manage to get into Google in the first place when Google's system seems so actively hostile to them? > Does that tactic ever work for you in arguments? I didn't anticipate that you would argue "the system" was supporting "dumb frat bros", when quite clearly he was not receiving any support from Google, yet somehow managed to join them and work there.
      - skj 9y ago
        Google is trying to differentiate itself from the rest of the system. The system, on context, clearly refers to the world of education and technology as a whole. In fact, there doesn't need to be an explicit bad actor to have detrimental systemic effects. Just a long slow build up of bias. Like the idea, worked into our heads from a young age, that boys are better at science.
- jorgemf 9y ago
  There are studies in infants that probes a different favoritism for things that are highly correlated with gender. How do you explain that infants without being corrupted by the popular culture still chose differently based on gender?

zimpenfish 9y ago

> I don't know the reason why women are not interested in tech. Dumb frat bros writing 10 page screeds about how they're not fit for the job because they're biologically conditioned to work with people and not machines -might- have something to do with it. And, as a historical point, until the late 60s, software development was seen as "women's work". Which somewhat destroys any "biological component" nonsense.

tzs 9y ago
You misunderstand the biological component argument, I think. It's not that men are massively more suited to some jobs and women are massively more suited to some jobs. It's that for some abilities the the center of the wide bell curve for men is not at the same place as the center of the wide bell curve for women. For example, for verbal abilities the female bell curve is a little to the right of the male bell curve. For spatial abilities, it is the other way around. Does this mean men cannot be excellent writers, and women cannot be excellent mechanical engineers? No. It just means that if all else were equal, we would expect writing and mechanical engineering to have gender distributions that don't match the general population.
- exomancer 9y ago
  I think you are also misjudging the effects, and to talk about ability is harmful to the very debate. There are some differences in ability, but they seem to even themselves out (men are better at mental rotation, women have better visual memory, etc.), the total effect on general intelligence appears to be none. However, there are measurable psychological differences when it comes to preference of the role you want to take, how much risk you are willing to take, and what your priorities regarding status and family are, and we do have evidence that some of it is, at least partially, biological.
collyw 9y ago
In Europe we don't (seem to) have the fratboy culture, but there are still very few women in tech. (Regarding race, certain groups seem to be overrepresented and others underrepresented) its mainly white guys, but Europe is mainly white.
- kenjackson 9y ago
  Fratboy culture is just the latest manifestation of racism/sexism. Last I checked Europe had its fair share of issues there.
  - collyw 9y ago
    So Europe is racist and sexist? Sounds like that's what you are getting at.
    - kenjackson 9y ago
      I was saying that the fratboy culture wasn't a prerequisite for racism and sexism. And that Europe has their own issues with both. Or do you disagree?
Sacho 9y ago
Until the late 60s, "programming" had very little to do with the "software development" that bloomed in the 70s. Interestingly, "dumb frat bros" are somehow not affected by people calling them that and manage to fight through the emotional pain and still achieve their dreams of being in tech. I've noted a very large group of people react negatively to the person who wrote the memo, writing insults(like "dumb frat bro"), demanding he be fired, threatening him with violence, the whole shebang. Unless I'm missing something, you seem to be implying that women are inferior to "dumb frat bros" because the "dumb frat bros" seem to be better at handling other people trying to bring them down.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > Interestingly, "dumb frat bros" are somehow not affected by people calling them that and manage to fight through the emotional pain and still achieve their dreams of being in tech Yes, almost as if the entire system was heavily weighted in their favour! > Unless I'm missing something, you seem to be implying [something I wasn't even vaguely implying but makes a good false point to try and hang a specious argument on] Does that tactic ever work for you in arguments? > demanding he be fired He demonstrated -in spades- that he wasn't capable of being a professional team player within that environment. > threatening him with violence That is too far and wholly wrong to do.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    > Yes, almost as if the entire system was heavily weighted in their favour! "The entire system"? Is this system like the Matrix, or is it governed by people? How did a "dumb frat bro" ever manage to get into Google in the first place when Google's system seems so actively hostile to them? > Does that tactic ever work for you in arguments? I didn't anticipate that you would argue "the system" was supporting "dumb frat bros", when quite clearly he was not receiving any support from Google, yet somehow managed to join them and work there.
    - skj 9y ago
      Google is trying to differentiate itself from the rest of the system. The system, on context, clearly refers to the world of education and technology as a whole. In fact, there doesn't need to be an explicit bad actor to have detrimental systemic effects. Just a long slow build up of bias. Like the idea, worked into our heads from a young age, that boys are better at science.
jorgemf 9y ago
There are studies in infants that probes a different favoritism for things that are highly correlated with gender. How do you explain that infants without being corrupted by the popular culture still chose differently based on gender?