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In authoritarian governments, you're also free to speak and usually, the consequence is your death, captivity, or torture. I don't buy that argument that you ar

In authoritarian governments, you're also free to speak and usually, the consequence is your death, captivity, or torture. I don't buy that argument that you are free to speak but not free of the consequences.

ucaetano 9y ago
Are you saying that someone stopping to be your friend, or someone not wanting to have you as an employee is equivalent to the government killing you?
- metaphorm 9y ago
  we have laws that govern employment and we don't have laws that govern friendship. these two relationships are not morally or legally equivalent.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    And apparently the laws of employment in CA allow for you to fire someone you don't like, as long as it isn't for a few particular reasons. A company can, for example, fire you for not liking the color red.
    - jquery 9y ago
      It can't fire you for being a whistleblower.
      - ucaetano 9y ago
        Sure, and nothing in the essay was whistleblowing.
        jquery 9y ago
        A court will decide that.
- nv-vn 9y ago
  No. That is a strawman of their argument. They are saying that freedom of speech means freedom from consequences for your speech. I don't really agree with their argument, but what they are saying is more nuanced than the way you've interpreted it. They are arguing for societal freedom of speech (morality instead of laws, I hope), meaning that you are free to speak but nobody has to listen. Consequences like firing someone from their job is different from not listening.
  - ucaetano 9y ago
    It was an honest question, not an argument. I had said: "Nobody has to give you the space or time to voice your speech", by which I was talking that private people and organizations do not have to give you the space and time for you to voice your speech. His/her reply was that governments kill people so you should be free of the consequences of your speech. The implication of this argument (being free of the consequences) means, for example, that your family can't not invite you over for Christmas because you're racist. Or that your friends can't stop hanging out with you, or that someone can't stop employing you. Those are all consequences of your speech, and you're not protected from them (with a few exceptions).
    - conradoqg 9y ago
      I agree with you on "nobody has to give you space or time to voice your speech". If you want to be free to speak your opinion but there are harsh consequences, that speech wasn't really "free". A lot of people will agree with you, a lot will not. My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that. Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences. The other side is: What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences. What do you think?
      - ucaetano 9y ago
        > My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that. I'm ok with that, but I'd rephrase as "there is no absolute freedom of speech", or even better, "there is no absolute freedom" in our society, and I'm ok with that. > Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences. Do you mean (1) (freedom of speech) and (freedom of the consequences of speech) or (2) accept (freedom of speech) and (consequences of speech)? > What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences. IMHO, there is no mainstream, only the immediate surroundings. Saying "women are less capable of doing CS jobs" next to that engineer who got fired will probably help you make a friend. Saying that in front of a woman will probably help you make an enemy. Both are consequences of speech. You make, and lose, friends based on your speech. Why would someone find the positive consequences of your speech acceptable, but not the negative ones? In life, there are always consequences. IMHO, the key part of being an adult is recognizing that your acts will have consequences, and being willing to face those consequences, positive or negative.

ucaetano 9y ago

Are you saying that someone stopping to be your friend, or someone not wanting to have you as an employee is equivalent to the government killing you?

metaphorm 9y ago
we have laws that govern employment and we don't have laws that govern friendship. these two relationships are not morally or legally equivalent.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  And apparently the laws of employment in CA allow for you to fire someone you don't like, as long as it isn't for a few particular reasons. A company can, for example, fire you for not liking the color red.
  - jquery 9y ago
    It can't fire you for being a whistleblower.
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      Sure, and nothing in the essay was whistleblowing.
      - jquery 9y ago
        A court will decide that.
nv-vn 9y ago
No. That is a strawman of their argument. They are saying that freedom of speech means freedom from consequences for your speech. I don't really agree with their argument, but what they are saying is more nuanced than the way you've interpreted it. They are arguing for societal freedom of speech (morality instead of laws, I hope), meaning that you are free to speak but nobody has to listen. Consequences like firing someone from their job is different from not listening.
- ucaetano 9y ago
  It was an honest question, not an argument. I had said: "Nobody has to give you the space or time to voice your speech", by which I was talking that private people and organizations do not have to give you the space and time for you to voice your speech. His/her reply was that governments kill people so you should be free of the consequences of your speech. The implication of this argument (being free of the consequences) means, for example, that your family can't not invite you over for Christmas because you're racist. Or that your friends can't stop hanging out with you, or that someone can't stop employing you. Those are all consequences of your speech, and you're not protected from them (with a few exceptions).
  - conradoqg 9y ago
    I agree with you on "nobody has to give you space or time to voice your speech". If you want to be free to speak your opinion but there are harsh consequences, that speech wasn't really "free". A lot of people will agree with you, a lot will not. My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that. Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences. The other side is: What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences. What do you think?
    - ucaetano 9y ago
      > My point is, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in our society, it's not an absolute freedom, and I'm OK with that. I'm ok with that, but I'd rephrase as "there is no absolute freedom of speech", or even better, "there is no absolute freedom" in our society, and I'm ok with that. > Our society will take a long time before we can truly accept freedom of speech and all its consequences. Do you mean (1) (freedom of speech) and (freedom of the consequences of speech) or (2) accept (freedom of speech) and (consequences of speech)? > What we have always seen in our society is if you think differently than the main stream thought you should be aware that will be consequences. IMHO, there is no mainstream, only the immediate surroundings. Saying "women are less capable of doing CS jobs" next to that engineer who got fired will probably help you make a friend. Saying that in front of a woman will probably help you make an enemy. Both are consequences of speech. You make, and lose, friends based on your speech. Why would someone find the positive consequences of your speech acceptable, but not the negative ones? In life, there are always consequences. IMHO, the key part of being an adult is recognizing that your acts will have consequences, and being willing to face those consequences, positive or negative.