4 ms·
An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1] "What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and
by adbge 9y ago
An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1]
"What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed."
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
- ajross 9y agoThis isn't an issue of "fashion" or "opinion". It's an issue of whether the guy is right or wrong, and if he's wrong[1] whether or not he's caused damage to his employer[2], and if that is true whether it is a firing offense[3]. You don't get to avoid discussion[4] about those subtitled points by retreating to some kind of invented safe space here. Out with it. Is he right? [1] He is. [2] He has. [3] It is. [4] Yeah, I'm just asserting without evidence too. But only to avoid the pointless flames that result.
- ctlby 9y agoPoint 2 and 3 are independent from point 1. He is completely right on the factual merits; stop with the science denialism.
- halostatue 9y agoHe is completely wrong on his assertions, and those assertions are not facts or science. As Pauli is reputed to have said, the author of the manifesto is “not even wrong”. He’s a white male fantasist.
- ctlby 9y agoPlease stop peddling this science denialism. There is great consensus outside the intellectually-bankrupt fields of sociology and gender studies.
- ajross 9y agoIf you're going to assert a scientific consensus, my friend, you're going to have to cite one.
- ctlby 9y agoStart with Halpern's "Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities" and follow the bibliography where it takes you (I really would like to provide the references, but just I don't have the patience to copy them now). For something rigorous that's digitally available, start with sapinker's slides from his 2005 debate [1]. Modern understanding is quite similar, only with new evidence and insights from evolutionary psychology and neurobiology. [1] https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/pinker.slides.html https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/pinker.slides.html
- avaer 9y agoRight, wrong, damage, and safety are precisely the dressed-up fashions PG's essay talks about.
- great_psy 9y agoTwo words are not a valid reference. If you want to be taken seriously, put some effort in your arguments.
- sidlls 9y agoApplying the notion of "moral fashion" to this doesn't seem appropriate. It also shows a certain blindness to the problems of sexism and racism especially in the context of this former employee's comments.
- the_cyber_pass 9y agoCompletely disagree and I think the reaction to the post proved his point. Unfortunately this is now easily going to blow up into another donglegate.
- sidlls 9y agoWhat point? His post had a bunch of men's rights dogwhistles presented with a facade of dispassionate, objective reason.
- the_cyber_pass 9y agoNone of what he said were men's rights dog whistles. If you think this you clearly don't have an ear for them. The closest you could say is he was maybe inspired by Peterson and Slatestarcodex.
- sillysaurus3 9y agoNone of what he said were men's rights dog whistles. Well... https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/6sa9f6/google_fires_employee_behind_controversial/dlbelet/ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/6sa9f6/google_f...
- the_cyber_pass 9y agoIs that our guy? He is talking about him in the 3rd person later on down the line. How is one reddit comment even relevant to this right now?
- 9y ago
- cthulha 9y agoYou might want to read Slavoj Zizek on ideology, since that's a deeper philosophical look at the same phenomena. Here's the quick video of him explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8ibrfXvpQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8ibrfXvpQ Basically, you might think about one thing as 'moral fashion' and another as 'social good', but you are really comparing two fashions and pretending to be objective. To make a concrete example out of the situation in front of us: if there is proof that diverse companies perform better (https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter) then his reasoning about how diversity initiatives are wasteful must be incorrect. So to say that he is 'correct' means to turn your back on empirical argument, and to base things in identity politics.
- dropstickle 9y agoIf diverse companies perform better, this would surely mean that there is some sort of difference between the sexes? How else could diversity have an impact on the bottom line of a company?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Zeklandia 9y agoRather, it shows that having people from diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences works more effectively than a social 'monoculture'.
- sliverstorm 9y agoWell, if women really make 87% of what men make for the same work (or whatever the latest number is), it could save the company 13% or more on car insur- I mean, labor costs.
- dropstickle 9y agoIf it is really true that women make 87% of men for the same work, any company that is driven by profit would exclusively hire women. The alternative would be that sexism is so rampant that it trumps profit driven motivation, am I missing something, or is that what you are suggesting?