3 ms·

"The reaction to the memo is really the most damning thing about the whole affair." I found that aspect troubling too. This isn't a subject I know much about,

by pcurve 9y ago

"The reaction to the memo is really the most damning thing about the whole affair." I found that aspect troubling too. This isn't a subject I know much about, so I was hoping for more balanced debate from both sides. Instead what we got was internet lynching and grandstanding.

kenjackson 9y ago
In fairness to the internet lynchers -- the distinction between modern day Nazi's and the prose in that memo are pretty subtle. No one is stupid enough to come right out and say that they hate women in the workplace, yet I've worked with people who have told me that before -- yet their public persona looks just like this authors. While you may be legally required to give him the benefit of the doubt -- any person who works with him that gives him that same benefit is probably naïve.
- dropstickle 9y ago
  Modern day Nazi's may use biological differences as a sort of ideological fuel to further their despicable cause, but to lay that sort of intention behind the memo author is also despicable. The nazis should not be able to deter a society from looking at science from an objective viewpoint, that is something everyone would suffer from.
  - kenjackson 9y ago
    Let's be clear. He isn't doing science. I support research done in a scientific way, but he is cherry picking research to further a political agenda in the workplace. To act like this is science is despicable.
    - dropstickle 9y ago
      As far as I have understood, his main problem with Google is exactly as you describe him. He feels like Google is actively furthering a political agenda, namely the left one, and does not allow any dissidents or diversity of viewpoints. He explictly states that he is not against diversity, and that he is open to criticism and debate of the arguments he presented. As for the cherry picking; remember that he is trying to make a point here, namely that biological differences might play a role over aggregated statistical differences, and that this might be one of the reasons we don't see the 50/50 split, and that ignoring this might be counter productive for everyone. Is the biological studies he have presented cherry picked? I'm sure you have seen the Quillette article [1], and the scientists quoted there does not seem to think so. [1] http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-....
      - kenjackson 9y ago
        In many regards he is correct about the left vs right, but I think he misses the broader historical context. Allowing blacks to attend the same schools as whites is also a left v right argument. As is adults dating children. We, as a society, have come up on different sides of the ideological spectrum for each. And while biology may account for some of the gap, it almost seems obvious that it doesn't account for all of it. And this is just looking at gains women have made economically in the past 30 years. I don't think most reasonable people at google think there are no bio diffs, but rather that we are still far enough from the point where we have exhausted other causes. Simply pointing out thst bio diffs exist, while effectively trying to use that to shut down other approaches of giving equal opportunity is purely a political and not science based position. Unless he has some much stronger science results he has not yet shared.

by pcurve 9y ago

kenjackson 9y ago

In fairness to the internet lynchers -- the distinction between modern day Nazi's and the prose in that memo are pretty subtle. No one is stupid enough to come right out and say that they hate women in the workplace, yet I've worked with people who have told me that before -- yet their public persona looks just like this authors. While you may be legally required to give him the benefit of the doubt -- any person who works with him that gives him that same benefit is probably naïve.

dropstickle 9y ago
Modern day Nazi's may use biological differences as a sort of ideological fuel to further their despicable cause, but to lay that sort of intention behind the memo author is also despicable. The nazis should not be able to deter a society from looking at science from an objective viewpoint, that is something everyone would suffer from.
- kenjackson 9y ago
  Let's be clear. He isn't doing science. I support research done in a scientific way, but he is cherry picking research to further a political agenda in the workplace. To act like this is science is despicable.
  - dropstickle 9y ago
    As far as I have understood, his main problem with Google is exactly as you describe him. He feels like Google is actively furthering a political agenda, namely the left one, and does not allow any dissidents or diversity of viewpoints. He explictly states that he is not against diversity, and that he is open to criticism and debate of the arguments he presented. As for the cherry picking; remember that he is trying to make a point here, namely that biological differences might play a role over aggregated statistical differences, and that this might be one of the reasons we don't see the 50/50 split, and that ignoring this might be counter productive for everyone. Is the biological studies he have presented cherry picked? I'm sure you have seen the Quillette article [1], and the scientists quoted there does not seem to think so. [1] http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-respond/ http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-....
    - kenjackson 9y ago
      In many regards he is correct about the left vs right, but I think he misses the broader historical context. Allowing blacks to attend the same schools as whites is also a left v right argument. As is adults dating children. We, as a society, have come up on different sides of the ideological spectrum for each. And while biology may account for some of the gap, it almost seems obvious that it doesn't account for all of it. And this is just looking at gains women have made economically in the past 30 years. I don't think most reasonable people at google think there are no bio diffs, but rather that we are still far enough from the point where we have exhausted other causes. Simply pointing out thst bio diffs exist, while effectively trying to use that to shut down other approaches of giving equal opportunity is purely a political and not science based position. Unless he has some much stronger science results he has not yet shared.