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> I am against discrimination, and that includes positive discrimination. I don't think it works that way. This version is problematically simplistic: I have +

> I am against discrimination, and that includes positive discrimination. I don't think it works that way. This version is problematically simplistic: I have +10 and you have -2; now add Affirmative Action and I've got +8 and you've got +2. I'm still not receiving negative discrimination. But, you're also missing the follow-on effects; specifically: 1) People who are not actually deserving on their own merits, but were getting in due to the privilege boost, are no longer present. 2) People who are actually deserving on their own merits, but were not getting due to other disadvantages, are now present. Overall merit of my coworkers goes up; I'm now working with better people and so get better/faster myself. It didn't start as a zero-sum game; it's not going to end up as a zero-sum game. Remember the myths of the meritocracy; success is not limited to the deserving, and the deserving are not limited from failure.

ameister14 9y ago
That's not how affirmative action works. Using your example, for most of the population, there is no detraction from their score. It only comes into effect if you have +1 and they have 0 or +1, and it becomes you with +1 and them with +2. If you had +10 and they had 0, you would stay at +10 and they would go to +2, taking the place of someone else that only had +1 and leaving you alone. For you in this case it isn't a 0-sum because you never lose. For the people on the edge, it is 0-sum because they are on the edge of not getting the position. Any advantage given to someone else removes them from contention.
- RangerScience 9y ago
  We're using different notation systems. I'm thinking "modifier to the dice roll", you're thinking "score". This is making it real hard to understand what you're saying. What is your understanding of how AA works?
  - ameister14 9y ago
    Ah, I see. As I understand it, AA usually comes into play when there is little separating two candidates. Most other qualities are the same or the historically advantaged candidate is only slightly better than the disadvantaged one. To counter this historical disadvantage, the candidate possessing it is given additional 'points' which push them beyond the other. All other things being equal or close to equal, this becomes the tie-breaker.
    - orlytoss9 9y ago
      At what point does someone given these AA boosts at every step in their life (high school, SAT, college admission, job interview) no longer qualify to be called disadvantaged?
    - RangerScience 9y ago
      I got real into AA back in day, when I thought I was on the receiving end of reverse discrimination. I learned that the biggest part of AA is actually just letting the kids know they qualify. We grow up with the narrative that after highschool you do college; and that you'll succeed at going somewhere. Not everyone gets that narrative, so a big part of AA is finding the kids that qualify for admission / scholarship / etc, and letting them know that. The next part is helping them apply; if no-one you know has ever navigated an academic bureaucracy, it's confusing and intimidating. It's like the Black Panthers. Everyone knows about the least of their efforts (police watch), because it's also the most controversial. Few people know about the bulk of their efforts (school lunches) because it's not.

ameister14 9y ago

That's not how affirmative action works. Using your example, for most of the population, there is no detraction from their score. It only comes into effect if you have +1 and they have 0 or +1, and it becomes you with +1 and them with +2. If you had +10 and they had 0, you would stay at +10 and they would go to +2, taking the place of someone else that only had +1 and leaving you alone. For you in this case it isn't a 0-sum because you never lose. For the people on the edge, it is 0-sum because they are on the edge of not getting the position. Any advantage given to someone else removes them from contention.

RangerScience 9y ago
We're using different notation systems. I'm thinking "modifier to the dice roll", you're thinking "score". This is making it real hard to understand what you're saying. What is your understanding of how AA works?
- ameister14 9y ago
  Ah, I see. As I understand it, AA usually comes into play when there is little separating two candidates. Most other qualities are the same or the historically advantaged candidate is only slightly better than the disadvantaged one. To counter this historical disadvantage, the candidate possessing it is given additional 'points' which push them beyond the other. All other things being equal or close to equal, this becomes the tie-breaker.
  - orlytoss9 9y ago
    At what point does someone given these AA boosts at every step in their life (high school, SAT, college admission, job interview) no longer qualify to be called disadvantaged?
  - RangerScience 9y ago
    I got real into AA back in day, when I thought I was on the receiving end of reverse discrimination. I learned that the biggest part of AA is actually just letting the kids know they qualify. We grow up with the narrative that after highschool you do college; and that you'll succeed at going somewhere. Not everyone gets that narrative, so a big part of AA is finding the kids that qualify for admission / scholarship / etc, and letting them know that. The next part is helping them apply; if no-one you know has ever navigated an academic bureaucracy, it's confusing and intimidating. It's like the Black Panthers. Everyone knows about the least of their efforts (police watch), because it's also the most controversial. Few people know about the bulk of their efforts (school lunches) because it's not.