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Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed tha

Likewise, are they different enough to justify the massive disparity in nursing? As of 2011, 90% of nurses in the US were women[0]. That's even more skewed than tech. Moreover, the average income of a nurse in Silicon Valley is $100k. To my knowledge, there is no outcry or movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. [0] https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupations.pdf https://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupa...

GVIrish 9y ago
That's kinda whataboutism though. Yes there is a disparity in nursing, teaching, garbage collection, whatever. How is that relevant to tech? The issue in question is that women (and minorities) are underrepresented and sometimes experience discrimination/unfair treatment in the IT industry. Why is that, and what are some solutions to that? Do we need solutions to that? If the nursing profession addressed gender disparity in some way that can be applied to tech, then that is worthy of inclusion in this discussion. If not, it's not particularly relevant.
URSpider94 9y ago
There, in fact, is a movement to bring more men into nursing. http://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2011/09/male-nurses-break-through-barriers-to-diversify-profession.html http://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2011/09/mal... Quotes from the article: "Through this initiative, called 20 x 20: Choose Nursing, it awards scholarships to undergraduate and graduate male nursing students; recognizes excellent nursing schools for men; and has created a poster advertising campaign designed to appeal to men." “One day, men might actually make up 50 percent of the nursing workforce, in a similar way that women have been able to enroll and work in law, engineering and medicine,” Lecher says. “That would be true gender inclusion and balance.” And, there are some really good reasons to have more men in nursing -- as nurses take over more and more primary care duties from physicians, it's a really good idea to have gender diversity in providers, especially for sensitive issues like prostate care and STD's.
mcguire 9y ago
Slightly more up-to-date data: http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/... There is, indeed, a movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. "Although all of the benefits of becoming a nurse would plausibly outshine any kind of challenges nurses face...there are still reasons that prevent men from eagerly pursuing a career in nursing. Even today, despite the growth in healthcare, nursing is still perceived as a field that is less prestigious, and so requires less training and education. One male student, named Gillis, noted that a recent graduate of Stanford, who was interested in a nursing program, was told, “Stanford grads don’t become nurses.” There were also students, ones who excelled in school, but were also told something along the lines of, “You’re too smart to become a nurse.” Also, there’s that old sense that men still feel as if nursing is a female profession, and so men choose to pursue a field that’ll be viewed as more appropriate for men. "Of the nearly five hundred [male nurses] who participated [in a survey] 73 percent claimed that negative stereotypes of men working as nurses realistically contributed to the shortage, 59 percent noted that what might deter men was that nursing has always, especially in previous generations, been seen as a female profession, and the rest, 42 percent felt that men lacked male models and mentors within the field." http://everynurse.org/men-entering-predominantly-female-career-field/ http://everynurse.org/men-entering-predominantly-female-care... https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2017/mar/01/why-so-few-male-nurses https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2017/mar/01/w... Even more, men have some advantages in the nursing profession. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nurses-make-thousands-more-salary-female-counterparts https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nur... https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-male-nurses-get-paid-more https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-... https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/08/women-in-leadership https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/08/women-i...
muninn_ 9y ago
And nurses get paid well too. You can also point to well-paying construction jobs and the like. I think (and I'm sure I'll get obliterated for saying this) but it's easier to support getting women into "tech" because they are high paying, physically easy jobs and they are super cool. Nobody thinks being a dock worker or a plumber is a cool job, even though they are very accessible with minimum post-secondary education (also notice more women go to college than men?).
Impossible 9y ago
This is constantly brought up as a counterpoint to women in tech on HN and it seems like no one that uses this argument ever does any research. Trying to get more men in nursing has been a thing for a very long time, in many ways its like the inverse of tech. A quick Google of "men in nursing" would show you a ton of resources and opinion pieces that look like a mirror of women in tech initiatives. Just because you aren't aware of the struggles of a given field because you aren't close to it doesn't mean they don't exist. With nursing it's very clearly a social issue. Nursing is seen as a women's job even though having more male nurses would improve the quality of health care. There are also other female heavy professions where there it is seen as important to bring more men in to increase diversity. Generally anything that has to do with working with children (childcare, especially teaching). In education getting more male teachers, especially minority male teachers is seen as important to provide young men with role models.
- geggam 9y ago
  Yet with constant and proactive pushes to increase women in tech and men in nursing it doesn't happen. Ever think maybe men generally dont want to be a nurse and women generally dont want to be a nerd ?
  - tptacek 9y ago
    No.
  - Impossible 9y ago
    In both cases there are gendered cultural associations built into the profession. Nursing is definitely viewed as feminine and software engineering is is still considered a masculine profession, although that perception is slowly changing as software becomes a more important part of everyone's life. Even if you get past that, the active shaming and harassment of people that enter or attempt to enter the respective fields keeps a lot of people out or drives them to quit. The "men just don't want to be nurses and women just don't want to be programmers" standpoint usually assumes some immutable property (often genetics) that defends the status quo, and ignores mountains of other obvious problems that might lead to gender imbalances in a given profession. Obviously men and women are different, but there are many people that might enjoy and thrive in a profession they wouldn't otherwise consider because it's "not for them."
sctb 9y ago
Let's please not re-ignite this one again (and again): https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20nursing&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20nursing&sort=byPopul... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14950209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14950209 and marked it off-topic.

GVIrish 9y ago

That's kinda whataboutism though. Yes there is a disparity in nursing, teaching, garbage collection, whatever. How is that relevant to tech? The issue in question is that women (and minorities) are underrepresented and sometimes experience discrimination/unfair treatment in the IT industry. Why is that, and what are some solutions to that? Do we need solutions to that? If the nursing profession addressed gender disparity in some way that can be applied to tech, then that is worthy of inclusion in this discussion. If not, it's not particularly relevant.

URSpider94 9y ago

There, in fact, is a movement to bring more men into nursing. http://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2011/09/male-nurses-break-through-barriers-to-diversify-profession.html http://www.rwjf.org/en/library/articles-and-news/2011/09/mal... Quotes from the article: "Through this initiative, called 20 x 20: Choose Nursing, it awards scholarships to undergraduate and graduate male nursing students; recognizes excellent nursing schools for men; and has created a poster advertising campaign designed to appeal to men." “One day, men might actually make up 50 percent of the nursing workforce, in a similar way that women have been able to enroll and work in law, engineering and medicine,” Lecher says. “That would be true gender inclusion and balance.” And, there are some really good reasons to have more men in nursing -- as nurses take over more and more primary care duties from physicians, it's a really good idea to have gender diversity in providers, especially for sensitive issues like prostate care and STD's.

mcguire 9y ago

Slightly more up-to-date data: http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/... There is, indeed, a movement to bring more men into the nursing profession. "Although all of the benefits of becoming a nurse would plausibly outshine any kind of challenges nurses face...there are still reasons that prevent men from eagerly pursuing a career in nursing. Even today, despite the growth in healthcare, nursing is still perceived as a field that is less prestigious, and so requires less training and education. One male student, named Gillis, noted that a recent graduate of Stanford, who was interested in a nursing program, was told, “Stanford grads don’t become nurses.” There were also students, ones who excelled in school, but were also told something along the lines of, “You’re too smart to become a nurse.” Also, there’s that old sense that men still feel as if nursing is a female profession, and so men choose to pursue a field that’ll be viewed as more appropriate for men. "Of the nearly five hundred [male nurses] who participated [in a survey] 73 percent claimed that negative stereotypes of men working as nurses realistically contributed to the shortage, 59 percent noted that what might deter men was that nursing has always, especially in previous generations, been seen as a female profession, and the rest, 42 percent felt that men lacked male models and mentors within the field." http://everynurse.org/men-entering-predominantly-female-career-field/ http://everynurse.org/men-entering-predominantly-female-care... https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2017/mar/01/why-so-few-male-nurses https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2017/mar/01/w... Even more, men have some advantages in the nursing profession. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nurses-make-thousands-more-salary-female-counterparts https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2015/03/124266/male-registered-nur... https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-male-nurses-get-paid-more https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/04/why-do-... https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/08/women-in-leadership https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/blog/2014/08/women-i...

muninn_ 9y ago

And nurses get paid well too. You can also point to well-paying construction jobs and the like. I think (and I'm sure I'll get obliterated for saying this) but it's easier to support getting women into "tech" because they are high paying, physically easy jobs and they are super cool. Nobody thinks being a dock worker or a plumber is a cool job, even though they are very accessible with minimum post-secondary education (also notice more women go to college than men?).

Impossible 9y ago

This is constantly brought up as a counterpoint to women in tech on HN and it seems like no one that uses this argument ever does any research. Trying to get more men in nursing has been a thing for a very long time, in many ways its like the inverse of tech. A quick Google of "men in nursing" would show you a ton of resources and opinion pieces that look like a mirror of women in tech initiatives. Just because you aren't aware of the struggles of a given field because you aren't close to it doesn't mean they don't exist. With nursing it's very clearly a social issue. Nursing is seen as a women's job even though having more male nurses would improve the quality of health care. There are also other female heavy professions where there it is seen as important to bring more men in to increase diversity. Generally anything that has to do with working with children (childcare, especially teaching). In education getting more male teachers, especially minority male teachers is seen as important to provide young men with role models.

geggam 9y ago
Yet with constant and proactive pushes to increase women in tech and men in nursing it doesn't happen. Ever think maybe men generally dont want to be a nurse and women generally dont want to be a nerd ?
- tptacek 9y ago
  No.
- Impossible 9y ago
  In both cases there are gendered cultural associations built into the profession. Nursing is definitely viewed as feminine and software engineering is is still considered a masculine profession, although that perception is slowly changing as software becomes a more important part of everyone's life. Even if you get past that, the active shaming and harassment of people that enter or attempt to enter the respective fields keeps a lot of people out or drives them to quit. The "men just don't want to be nurses and women just don't want to be programmers" standpoint usually assumes some immutable property (often genetics) that defends the status quo, and ignores mountains of other obvious problems that might lead to gender imbalances in a given profession. Obviously men and women are different, but there are many people that might enjoy and thrive in a profession they wouldn't otherwise consider because it's "not for them."

sctb 9y ago

Let's please not re-ignite this one again (and again): https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20nursing&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20nursing&sort=byPopul... We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14950209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14950209 and marked it off-topic.