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That is a lazy slide deck. From the paper it cites (http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001 http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001): > It is importa

That is a lazy slide deck. From the paper it cites (http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001 http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001): > It is important for us to know that females begin in high school to perform less well than males on mathematical problem-solving tasks. Problem solving is critical for success in many mathematics-related fields, such as engineering and physics. In this sense, mathematics skills may continue to be a critical filter. It speculates that this may be because > the content of problem-solving items on those tests may have heavy representation of masculine-stereotyped content, which has been shown to produce better performance by males in some studies, although results on the issue are mixed So the Figure 1 the slide uses from the paper has smeared the critical skill, from a software-development perspective, across a large set of other math-related skills. The results of the paper with respect to that skill are inconclusive, not surprising since it's a 27-year-old meta-analysis. Surely there are better results to cite by now?

alpsgolden 9y ago
Yeah, just reading the abstract tells a different story than the graph she uses. Google or a college level computer science course is specifically pulling from adults who are in the very top percentiles in logical/quantitative skills. The abstract of the paper notes that while the math difference is small among the total population: "differences favoring men emerged in high school and college" and "grew larger with increasingly selective samples, and were largest for highly selected samples and samples of highly precocious persons." So the slide deck obscures the fact that in the relevant sample, men have better skills, by including the general population (women, average folks) where there is no difference.
actuallyalys 9y ago
Well, it's refuting a lazy argument. Why would computer science be so different from other STEM fields that have radically higher proportions of women? [0] In particular, why is math so much better? [1] If biological differences are so important, why has it varied so much over time, including a big decline since the 80s? [0] I mean, we know that gender roles play a big role in what jobs people do and that sexism is a problem in tech, so it's honestly kind of weird to think "actually, it's mostly caused by some hitherto unobserved large biological difference." Nonetheless, there is research indicating gender differences in math vary greatly between countries and appear to be correlated to other measures of gender equity [2]. Even in countries with relatively large discrepancies, there's not a big difference. I couldn't find any meta analysis of specifically programming skill, but an analysis of one CS department didn't find gender differences due to ability [3]. An older study showed women and men scored similarly on an introductory class, but women were less likely to get an A or A+ [4]. A small study of elementary students showed that girls and boys did equally well on easy problems, but boys did better on hard problems [5]. [0]: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-... [1]: Compare these tables for math and computer science: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab34.pdf https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab34.pdf and https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf [2]: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/1/103/; http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/1/103/; PDF https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nicole_Else-Quest/publication/40906547_Cross-National_Patterns_of_Gender_Differences_in_Mathematics_A_Meta-Analysis/links/0a85e530ca35b7bdea000000/Cross-National-Patterns-of-Gender-Differences-in-Mathematics-A-Meta-Analysis.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nicole_Else-Quest/publi... [3]: http://www.pd.infn.it/~lacaprar/ProgettoScuola/Biblio/genderdiff_2003.pdf http://www.pd.infn.it/~lacaprar/ProgettoScuola/Biblio/gender... [4]: http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED384389.pdf http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED384389.pdf [5]: http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/publications/Sullivan_Gender%20Differences%20Robotics_2016.pdf http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/publications/Sullivan_Gender%20...
- AlexCoventry 9y ago
  I don't think biology plays a big role in this disparity, and I agree that the Google essay was poorly argued, ill-considered and harmful.
- alpsgolden 9y ago
  Why would computer science be so different from other STEM fields that have radically higher proportions of women? The data from other professions overall seems to be in line with a "women less interested in systemizing activities" http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... In particular, why is math so much better? It's a much smaller field, with far fewer lucrative jobs. For any given smaller fields, there could be a number of reasons why it is more or less equal. My hypothesis is that men are biologically more inclined toward geeking out and doing coding or such for fun. If men who are good at math are also geeking and out and coding, while women just do their high school math homework, women would have a comparative advantage at plain math as opposed to computer science. This would suggest that the gender gap could be reduced by forcing women and men to do computer programming as part of a standard high school curriculum. But the idea of forcing women to do something other than what they do in their free time, just to close a gender gap, seems to me pretty appalling totalitarian. Nonetheless, there is research indicating gender differences in math vary greatly between countries and appear to be correlated to other measures of gender equity Reading the studies, some things are positively correlated, some are negative. Some things have no correlation. There are lots of controls and data manipulation going on, hard to tell if the dredged for the results or not. And if you look at other types of studies you see the opposite result -- http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... I couldn't find any meta analysis of specifically programming skill, but an analysis of one CS department didn't find gender differences due to ability If the scores are equal, this would suggest no bias in selection. If women are unfairly excluded from computer science, or face a higher bar due to discrimination, then since they were more selected their scores should be higher. A small study of elementary students showed that girls and boys did equally well on easy problems, but boys did better on hard problems Keep in mind girls mature faster and differently, so differences in elementary school aren't all that predictive of differences later.

alpsgolden 9y ago

Yeah, just reading the abstract tells a different story than the graph she uses. Google or a college level computer science course is specifically pulling from adults who are in the very top percentiles in logical/quantitative skills. The abstract of the paper notes that while the math difference is small among the total population: "differences favoring men emerged in high school and college" and "grew larger with increasingly selective samples, and were largest for highly selected samples and samples of highly precocious persons." So the slide deck obscures the fact that in the relevant sample, men have better skills, by including the general population (women, average folks) where there is no difference.

actuallyalys 9y ago

Well, it's refuting a lazy argument. Why would computer science be so different from other STEM fields that have radically higher proportions of women? [0] In particular, why is math so much better? [1] If biological differences are so important, why has it varied so much over time, including a big decline since the 80s? [0] I mean, we know that gender roles play a big role in what jobs people do and that sexism is a problem in tech, so it's honestly kind of weird to think "actually, it's mostly caused by some hitherto unobserved large biological difference." Nonetheless, there is research indicating gender differences in math vary greatly between countries and appear to be correlated to other measures of gender equity [2]. Even in countries with relatively large discrepancies, there's not a big difference. I couldn't find any meta analysis of specifically programming skill, but an analysis of one CS department didn't find gender differences due to ability [3]. An older study showed women and men scored similarly on an introductory class, but women were less likely to get an A or A+ [4]. A small study of elementary students showed that girls and boys did equally well on easy problems, but boys did better on hard problems [5]. [0]: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-... [1]: Compare these tables for math and computer science: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab34.pdf https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab34.pdf and https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/pdf/tab33.pdf [2]: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/1/103/; http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/136/1/103/; PDF https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nicole_Else-Quest/publication/40906547_Cross-National_Patterns_of_Gender_Differences_in_Mathematics_A_Meta-Analysis/links/0a85e530ca35b7bdea000000/Cross-National-Patterns-of-Gender-Differences-in-Mathematics-A-Meta-Analysis.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nicole_Else-Quest/publi... [3]: http://www.pd.infn.it/~lacaprar/ProgettoScuola/Biblio/genderdiff_2003.pdf http://www.pd.infn.it/~lacaprar/ProgettoScuola/Biblio/gender... [4]: http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED384389.pdf http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED384389.pdf [5]: http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/publications/Sullivan_Gender%20Differences%20Robotics_2016.pdf http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/publications/Sullivan_Gender%20...

AlexCoventry 9y ago
I don't think biology plays a big role in this disparity, and I agree that the Google essay was poorly argued, ill-considered and harmful.
alpsgolden 9y ago
Why would computer science be so different from other STEM fields that have radically higher proportions of women? The data from other professions overall seems to be in line with a "women less interested in systemizing activities" http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... In particular, why is math so much better? It's a much smaller field, with far fewer lucrative jobs. For any given smaller fields, there could be a number of reasons why it is more or less equal. My hypothesis is that men are biologically more inclined toward geeking out and doing coding or such for fun. If men who are good at math are also geeking and out and coding, while women just do their high school math homework, women would have a comparative advantage at plain math as opposed to computer science. This would suggest that the gender gap could be reduced by forcing women and men to do computer programming as part of a standard high school curriculum. But the idea of forcing women to do something other than what they do in their free time, just to close a gender gap, seems to me pretty appalling totalitarian. Nonetheless, there is research indicating gender differences in math vary greatly between countries and appear to be correlated to other measures of gender equity Reading the studies, some things are positively correlated, some are negative. Some things have no correlation. There are lots of controls and data manipulation going on, hard to tell if the dredged for the results or not. And if you look at other types of studies you see the opposite result -- http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-differences/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger... I couldn't find any meta analysis of specifically programming skill, but an analysis of one CS department didn't find gender differences due to ability If the scores are equal, this would suggest no bias in selection. If women are unfairly excluded from computer science, or face a higher bar due to discrimination, then since they were more selected their scores should be higher. A small study of elementary students showed that girls and boys did equally well on easy problems, but boys did better on hard problems Keep in mind girls mature faster and differently, so differences in elementary school aren't all that predictive of differences later.