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The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. It just so happens that techies happen to be very open oftentimes. I mean, what this pers

The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. It just so happens that techies happen to be very open oftentimes. I mean, what this person wrote, I heard it on various occasions in different formulations from various people. Even a woman (a Psychologist student at that time) once told me she'd rather have a male dentist and a male president. I imagine tech industry to be brutal for woman, but so are probably a lot of other areas like construction works, virtually anything with hand-labour involved, not to speak about the military. Anyways, it's great that people in the tech industry speak what they think. Maybe things change faster this way.

geofft 9y ago
> The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. Sure, but tech is a field that requires intelligence, and Google a company that hires specifically for intelligence. The fact that people are stupid isn't news. The fact that a Google employee is, and that apparently a large fraction of the company agrees with his views, is definitely news. The entire foundation of this essay is based on assumptions, anecdata, and debunked science. It is not an essay rooted in intelligent thought and an honest examination of the facts by any means. It is an ideological position and nothing else.
- blablabla123 9y ago
  Yes, Tech requires intelligence. Google in particular in famous for checking analytical intelligence in their interview. I know that's not 100% correct but I call this "pure number crunching intelligence". People there know how to solve this and that, can approximate problems and solutions. This gender thing might be formulated as an analytical problem but it suffers high complexity. It's better to be understood empirically. But how can these people understand it empirically if there are no women around? Are they reading enough about this complex topic to still make informed decisions? Probably not. I have an illustrative example: in Germany in those regions that have the least foreigners, there are the most Neo Nazis and people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. Disclaimer: I didn't read more than a few sentences of such a stupid essay because I have better to do with my time. But in any case, you cannot solve this problem by writing "a better essay". IMHO this problem has to do with complexity and it cannot be solved with facts.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    >I have an illustrative example: in Germany in those regions that have the least foreigners, there are the most Neo Nazis and people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. As a counter-example: In the US, people living in the South are generally the most racist, despite Southern states having the most ethnic diversity. https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b7d145c14255746125e39d0f30b64d6-c https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b7d145c14255746125e39...
    - blablabla123 9y ago
      How much social interaction is there between people of different ethnicities? How often is a white person neighbour of a black person? Can you compare this to, say, New York City?
      - xienze 9y ago
        Tons. When cities are 30+% black, as most are in the South, lots of daily interaction with blacks is par for the course.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      Is racism really worse in the American south? Probably. Maybe. Certainly, it's more of an obvious, concrete social fixture. But still,... https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map (I'm from Amarillo, TX and I'm kind of a misanthrope. "General hate" might be something I could get behind.) https://newrepublic.com/article/112586/voting-rights-act-case-racism-worse-south https://newrepublic.com/article/112586/voting-rights-act-cas... https://thoughtcatalog.com/kovie-biakolo/2015/06/dialogue-is-the-south-more-racist-than-the-north/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/kovie-biakolo/2015/06/dialogue-is... http://www.salon.com/2014/12/14/the_north_isnt_better_than_the_south_the_real_history_of_modern_racism_and_segregation_above_the_mason_dixon_line/ http://www.salon.com/2014/12/14/the_north_isnt_better_than_t...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
untog 9y ago
> The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. I agree, but that's also at the core of my (internal) confusion about it. His arguments are not new, at all. As far as I could tell he doesn't present any new evidence to back up his argument, either. So, to those who say "it is important that he spoke out, and that we have this debate": when does this debate end? Assuming we have the debate and reach a conclusion, what happens when I post a similar manifesto in six month's time asserting another conclusion without presenting any new evidence? Surely by that logic we need to have the same debate over again? It'll never end. "We must debate!" feels very objective until you admit to yourself (as I freely will) that you're coming to this with a preconceived opinion, and won't be content until the debate is settled in the way you think it should be settled.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  > As far as I could tell he doesn't present any new evidence to back up his argument, either. So, to those who say "it is important that he spoke out, and that we have this debate": when does this debate end? The problem is that (inside Google and elsewhere) the debate ended by fiat, not because one side made their case better; and it didn't end in favor of a side with tons of science to back it (not even close). My money is on there not being much of an average difference between the population of each gender when it comes to technical talent. But much more importantly, I'm aware that the science is far from conclusive on the topic, since socialization can be pretty different to untangle. The argument at places like Google is that looking at demographic differences in a population and deciding that it must be caused by discrimination is just assuming that nothing else could possibly contribute. > "We must debate!" feels very objective until you admit to yourself (as I freely will) that you're coming to this with a preconceived opinion, and won't be content until the debate is settled in the way you think it should be settled. The irony is thick in this sentence. How do you not understand that if both sides claim the other does this, _the one that's actively trying to shut down scrutiny of their claims_ is by far in the weaker position?
  - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    Does it matter, for Google, whether the gap in interest-in-engineering is biological or social? Either way, there's more men doing the sorts of things that get them the skills they need to succeed as an engineer at Google, and it's in Google's best interest to hire every engineer with the necessary skills.
ladygagaga 9y ago
"Even a woman (a Psychologist student at that time) once told me she'd rather have a male dentist and a male president." Just because "a woman" said it, does this make this statement true?
- blablabla123 9y ago
  No, I think it's not true. But I find this very weird and in my opinion this proves that it's actually not a tech industry problem.

geofft 9y ago

> The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. Sure, but tech is a field that requires intelligence, and Google a company that hires specifically for intelligence. The fact that people are stupid isn't news. The fact that a Google employee is, and that apparently a large fraction of the company agrees with his views, is definitely news. The entire foundation of this essay is based on assumptions, anecdata, and debunked science. It is not an essay rooted in intelligent thought and an honest examination of the facts by any means. It is an ideological position and nothing else.

blablabla123 9y ago
Yes, Tech requires intelligence. Google in particular in famous for checking analytical intelligence in their interview. I know that's not 100% correct but I call this "pure number crunching intelligence". People there know how to solve this and that, can approximate problems and solutions. This gender thing might be formulated as an analytical problem but it suffers high complexity. It's better to be understood empirically. But how can these people understand it empirically if there are no women around? Are they reading enough about this complex topic to still make informed decisions? Probably not. I have an illustrative example: in Germany in those regions that have the least foreigners, there are the most Neo Nazis and people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. Disclaimer: I didn't read more than a few sentences of such a stupid essay because I have better to do with my time. But in any case, you cannot solve this problem by writing "a better essay". IMHO this problem has to do with complexity and it cannot be solved with facts.
- Danihan 9y ago
  >I have an illustrative example: in Germany in those regions that have the least foreigners, there are the most Neo Nazis and people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. As a counter-example: In the US, people living in the South are generally the most racist, despite Southern states having the most ethnic diversity. https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b7d145c14255746125e39d0f30b64d6-c https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b7d145c14255746125e39...
  - blablabla123 9y ago
    How much social interaction is there between people of different ethnicities? How often is a white person neighbour of a black person? Can you compare this to, say, New York City?
    - xienze 9y ago
      Tons. When cities are 30+% black, as most are in the South, lots of daily interaction with blacks is par for the course.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Is racism really worse in the American south? Probably. Maybe. Certainly, it's more of an obvious, concrete social fixture. But still,... https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map (I'm from Amarillo, TX and I'm kind of a misanthrope. "General hate" might be something I could get behind.) https://newrepublic.com/article/112586/voting-rights-act-case-racism-worse-south https://newrepublic.com/article/112586/voting-rights-act-cas... https://thoughtcatalog.com/kovie-biakolo/2015/06/dialogue-is-the-south-more-racist-than-the-north/ https://thoughtcatalog.com/kovie-biakolo/2015/06/dialogue-is... http://www.salon.com/2014/12/14/the_north_isnt_better_than_the_south_the_real_history_of_modern_racism_and_segregation_above_the_mason_dixon_line/ http://www.salon.com/2014/12/14/the_north_isnt_better_than_t...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

untog 9y ago

> The thing is, the guy wrote what many people think - outside of tech. I agree, but that's also at the core of my (internal) confusion about it. His arguments are not new, at all. As far as I could tell he doesn't present any new evidence to back up his argument, either. So, to those who say "it is important that he spoke out, and that we have this debate": when does this debate end? Assuming we have the debate and reach a conclusion, what happens when I post a similar manifesto in six month's time asserting another conclusion without presenting any new evidence? Surely by that logic we need to have the same debate over again? It'll never end. "We must debate!" feels very objective until you admit to yourself (as I freely will) that you're coming to this with a preconceived opinion, and won't be content until the debate is settled in the way you think it should be settled.

wutbrodo 9y ago
> As far as I could tell he doesn't present any new evidence to back up his argument, either. So, to those who say "it is important that he spoke out, and that we have this debate": when does this debate end? The problem is that (inside Google and elsewhere) the debate ended by fiat, not because one side made their case better; and it didn't end in favor of a side with tons of science to back it (not even close). My money is on there not being much of an average difference between the population of each gender when it comes to technical talent. But much more importantly, I'm aware that the science is far from conclusive on the topic, since socialization can be pretty different to untangle. The argument at places like Google is that looking at demographic differences in a population and deciding that it must be caused by discrimination is just assuming that nothing else could possibly contribute. > "We must debate!" feels very objective until you admit to yourself (as I freely will) that you're coming to this with a preconceived opinion, and won't be content until the debate is settled in the way you think it should be settled. The irony is thick in this sentence. How do you not understand that if both sides claim the other does this, _the one that's actively trying to shut down scrutiny of their claims_ is by far in the weaker position?
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  Does it matter, for Google, whether the gap in interest-in-engineering is biological or social? Either way, there's more men doing the sorts of things that get them the skills they need to succeed as an engineer at Google, and it's in Google's best interest to hire every engineer with the necessary skills.

ladygagaga 9y ago

"Even a woman (a Psychologist student at that time) once told me she'd rather have a male dentist and a male president." Just because "a woman" said it, does this make this statement true?

blablabla123 9y ago
No, I think it's not true. But I find this very weird and in my opinion this proves that it's actually not a tech industry problem.