4 ms·

Maybe it's okay for people to be outraged about some things.

fireflash38 9y ago
Sure is! People can be offended all they want. Where things get really iffy is when they want 'justice'. It often means that they try to get that person fired or lambasted in front of their peers. I don't see how that's at all constructive, let alone 'justice'. At the very least, it leads to even more divisiveness, instead of rational discussion. As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired?
- navait 9y ago
  My manager threatened one of my co-workers with termination if they didn't take a more proactive approach towards making the code he wrote more robust. He took out specific examples of shit code he wrote, and had us criticize it and the mindset that created it. It changed how he programmed for the better and his outlook towards his job.
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    The first step is to want to help. Too many, all across the spectrum, have his mindset that people that do or think things they don't like should be destroyed and locked away from "civilized society." A common rebuttal I see from these sorts, after being questioned why they don't take it upon themselves to sit down and understand one another (I will concede there is a very very very small minority that this shouldn't be done with, but you're unlikely to ever interact with them), is that it's not their duty to help these people. Unfortunately, this makes the issue worse when you start exiling certain groups and radicalized with hate. Here's an interesting article (isolated incident) where those with extreme views were shown compassion and understanding, and ultimately disavowed their ideas: Black Man Gets KKK Members To Disavow By Befriending Them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-befriends-kkk-documentary-accidental-courtesy_us_585c250de4b0de3a08f495fc http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-be...
  - fireflash38 9y ago
    I wouldn't consider that a change in worldview, which tend to be far more deeply ingrained.
- s73ver 9y ago
  As a thought experiment: have you ever seen a team work well together when one of the members has publically said that half of their team doesn't deserve to be there and shouldn't have been hired in the first place?
- untog 9y ago
  > As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? ...but that's not why someone in this position would be fired. It would be because their publicly stated opinions about what people are and are not capable of makes their co-workers deeply uncomfortable. We can debate endlessly (we already have, I'm sure we will again) whether firing is the right or wrong choice, but let's argue about it for the right reasons.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  > As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? It's fundamentally not about them; it's about their co-workers. Making it about them is the wrong approach.
  - fireflash38 9y ago
    I personally wouldn't want to work with people who can't handle the slightest adversity.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? I have see people limited in their ability to cause further harm by being fired; not all consequences are directed at reformation if he offender.
Quarrelsome 9y ago
But is it okay to campaign towards the goal of firing someone for expressing an opinion they feel outraged about?
- Semiapies 9y ago
  Sure! Especially when it's so rare that it's a big kerfuffle every single time it happens in this industry.
- snerbles 9y ago
  To some, the mere expression of an outrageous opinion is a form of violence in and of itself. Following this logic, any who express such ideas to others should be sanctioned as if they committed physical violence.
  - Ilurkyeahsowat 9y ago
    What makes something outrageous though? Physical violence is fairly cut and dry in definition, "outrageous" is completely subjective. For example, my grandmother, like some older people, will not talk about menstration. She believes it is completely outrageous that anyone would discuss this publically. Would it then be fair to say that discussions surrounding menstration are as bad as physical violence towards my grandmother?
  - poohblahoyamo 9y ago
    Ohhhh, I see.. nobody ever showed me this linear line.. (I am a minority, immigrant.woman...) The social justice warrior reasoning were.never very clear today.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > But is it okay to campaign towards the goal of firing someone for expressing an opinion they feel outraged about? It depends what the opinion is, and what job the person holds, and the relationship between those two things. The idea that the coercive power of government should not be deployed against expression doesn't mean all ideas or equal or that there are never conditions where expression should have negative consequences. (In fact, any answer to your question implies that there are ideas that are unacceptable to express.)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Danihan 9y ago
Sure it is. Lots of people get outraged and offended by any number of things. For instance, I'm outraged that anything related to Affirmative Action exists period -- as I believe codified, race-based laws are disgusting and an anathema to the construct of equality and equal-treatment under the law.
- wehadfun 9y ago
  White women are the biggest beneficiary of Affirmative Action. If you think that AA is a race only thing you are wrong.

Sure is! People can be offended all they want. Where things get really iffy is when they want 'justice'. It often means that they try to get that person fired or lambasted in front of their peers. I don't see how that's at all constructive, let alone 'justice'. At the very least, it leads to even more divisiveness, instead of rational discussion. As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired?

navait 9y ago
My manager threatened one of my co-workers with termination if they didn't take a more proactive approach towards making the code he wrote more robust. He took out specific examples of shit code he wrote, and had us criticize it and the mindset that created it. It changed how he programmed for the better and his outlook towards his job.
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  The first step is to want to help. Too many, all across the spectrum, have his mindset that people that do or think things they don't like should be destroyed and locked away from "civilized society." A common rebuttal I see from these sorts, after being questioned why they don't take it upon themselves to sit down and understand one another (I will concede there is a very very very small minority that this shouldn't be done with, but you're unlikely to ever interact with them), is that it's not their duty to help these people. Unfortunately, this makes the issue worse when you start exiling certain groups and radicalized with hate. Here's an interesting article (isolated incident) where those with extreme views were shown compassion and understanding, and ultimately disavowed their ideas: Black Man Gets KKK Members To Disavow By Befriending Them: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-befriends-kkk-documentary-accidental-courtesy_us_585c250de4b0de3a08f495fc http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-be...
- fireflash38 9y ago
  I wouldn't consider that a change in worldview, which tend to be far more deeply ingrained.
s73ver 9y ago
As a thought experiment: have you ever seen a team work well together when one of the members has publically said that half of their team doesn't deserve to be there and shouldn't have been hired in the first place?
untog 9y ago
> As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? ...but that's not why someone in this position would be fired. It would be because their publicly stated opinions about what people are and are not capable of makes their co-workers deeply uncomfortable. We can debate endlessly (we already have, I'm sure we will again) whether firing is the right or wrong choice, but let's argue about it for the right reasons.
JoshTriplett 9y ago
> As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? It's fundamentally not about them; it's about their co-workers. Making it about them is the wrong approach.
- fireflash38 9y ago
  I personally wouldn't want to work with people who can't handle the slightest adversity.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> As a thought experiment: have you ever seen someone change their mind or worldview as a result of being insulted & fired? I have see people limited in their ability to cause further harm by being fired; not all consequences are directed at reformation if he offender.

Quarrelsome 9y ago

But is it okay to campaign towards the goal of firing someone for expressing an opinion they feel outraged about?

Semiapies 9y ago
Sure! Especially when it's so rare that it's a big kerfuffle every single time it happens in this industry.
snerbles 9y ago
To some, the mere expression of an outrageous opinion is a form of violence in and of itself. Following this logic, any who express such ideas to others should be sanctioned as if they committed physical violence.
- Ilurkyeahsowat 9y ago
  What makes something outrageous though? Physical violence is fairly cut and dry in definition, "outrageous" is completely subjective. For example, my grandmother, like some older people, will not talk about menstration. She believes it is completely outrageous that anyone would discuss this publically. Would it then be fair to say that discussions surrounding menstration are as bad as physical violence towards my grandmother?
- poohblahoyamo 9y ago
  Ohhhh, I see.. nobody ever showed me this linear line.. (I am a minority, immigrant.woman...) The social justice warrior reasoning were.never very clear today.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> But is it okay to campaign towards the goal of firing someone for expressing an opinion they feel outraged about? It depends what the opinion is, and what job the person holds, and the relationship between those two things. The idea that the coercive power of government should not be deployed against expression doesn't mean all ideas or equal or that there are never conditions where expression should have negative consequences. (In fact, any answer to your question implies that there are ideas that are unacceptable to express.)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Danihan 9y ago

Sure it is. Lots of people get outraged and offended by any number of things. For instance, I'm outraged that anything related to Affirmative Action exists period -- as I believe codified, race-based laws are disgusting and an anathema to the construct of equality and equal-treatment under the law.

wehadfun 9y ago
White women are the biggest beneficiary of Affirmative Action. If you think that AA is a race only thing you are wrong.