5 ms·

Why? In all seriousness why? Neither Mazda nor Toyota, has an electric car, competetive batterytech, a charging network or practicly anything, that will give th

Why? In all seriousness why? Neither Mazda nor Toyota, has an electric car, competetive batterytech, a charging network or practicly anything, that will give them an edge.

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
They do have strength in manufacturing. That's gonna matter too.
jonknee 9y ago
Unlike Tesla they both know how to make cars at volume.
- karolisd 9y ago
  It's easier to learn old tech than new tech. Copying manufacturing is easier than making new software.
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    This is definitely wrong. Easiness of tech is determined by their complexity not age.
  - hyperbovine 9y ago
    This explains why there are so many companies that make passenger jets.
    - stickfigure 9y ago
      Eh? Modern jets of all types are full of software. An unattributed quote my father told me back in the 80s: "Software saved the aerospace industry. Every other way of adding expense to an airplane also adds weight."
  - billylindeman 9y ago
    This mentality highlights the hubris of Silicon Valley. Manufacturing is not easy, and the "tech" that Tesla has isn't unique. Their main advantage is good design which is arguably easier to copy than manufacturing or software.
  - brudgers 9y ago
    I live in an area with an automotive industrial base. There are hundreds of tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers in addition to the five vehicle assembly plants within 150 miles. Each required real-estate acquisition and development entitlement and tax incentive pursuit and contract negotiations. There were roads and highway interchanges. Sewer lines were laid and power lines run and electrical substations and ordinary fire stations built. All those suppliers built manufacturing capacity because of established relationships with the automaker. It's why there will be German owned suppliers associated with a German manufacturer and Japan owned suppliers associated with a Japanese manufacturer, etc. Manufacturing at scale happens by outsourcing. It's not the technology that limits, it's business capacity.
  - deelowe 9y ago
    > Copying manufacturing is easier than making new software. That's a good one. Next you'll tell me supply chain and logistics is just as simple as buying SAP or even better, that SAP is for fools and you're betting off rolling your own solution.
- sixQuarks 9y ago
  And you really think Elon will not figure out a way to do the same? SpaceX has already accomplished a much harder task (reusable rockets), which not even nation states have been able to do. Elon's main focus right now is "building the machine that builds the machines", he says they will have the most advanced manufacturing in the world, vehicle or not, and based on his past successes, I don't see anything that will stop him other than death or illness.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > And you really think Elon will not figure out a way to do the same? Scaling car factories across the world is something that took BigCar decades and billions upon billions of dollars. And the level of automation expertise BigCar has is something that Tesla won't have for years to come. > SpaceX has already accomplished a much harder task (reusable rockets), which not even nation states have been able to do. SpaceX had three advantages: 1) no political bullshit like NASA has to suffer from with political aims shifting at least with every new POTUS, only Elon at the top with a clear, extremely long term vision 2) they were free to research in any direction they wanted and in the workflow they wanted, without being stuck on technologies, suppliers etc. due to unions, political collusion or other "government-only issues" 3) massive increase in technological capabilities: SpaceX came at perfectly the right time to enjoy the combination affordable super computing, 3D printing and especially decades of material science and rocketry research, while the Russians were/are stuck due to a lack of money and the ULA was hampered by being stuck on Waterfall-style development and general government issues.
    - sixQuarks 9y ago
      OK, if you feel so strongly, care to make a bet?
    - detritus 9y ago
      Which is why you hire-in talent, as Tesla have done with ex-Audi honcho Peter Hochholdinger to head up their production... https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/tesla-vp-vehicle-production-interview-peter-hochholdinger/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/tesla-vp-vehicle-production-i... (yes, yes - it's electrek, a less than unbiased source...)
- martin_bech 9y ago
  It very important to be able to control your sourcing of parts and materials, and this will be Teslas biggest challenge. However I really believe thats the only thing they have on Tesla, and if Tesla solves this, it will bring a world of hurt on the incumbents.
- taheca 9y ago
  With a process heavy on manual labor and a huge complicated supply chain making vehicles with over 2000 parts. Tesla are working on making a dark factory. Completely automated and that moves a car along at 1M per minute.
  - nihonde 9y ago
    One of the hardest lessons learned at Toyota, according to their management, is that fully automated assembly lines eliminate a crucial opportunity for human ingenuity to intervene. That's why Toyota made a deliberate effort to retain and reintegrate 天才 engineers and mechanics on the line. From a Quartz article in 2014: So far, people taking back work done by robots at over 100 workspaces reduced waste in crankshaft production by 10%, and helped shorten the production line. Others improved axel production and cut costs for chassis parts. “We cannot simply depend on the machines that only repeat the same task over and over again,” project lead Mitsuru Kawai told Bloomberg. “To be the master of the machine, you have to have the knowledge and the skills to teach the machine.”
cdkee 9y ago
If anything, it's getting them to spend on R&D at least/// http://jalopnik.com/toyota-is-developing-new-solid-state-batteries-for-elec-1797294724 http://jalopnik.com/toyota-is-developing-new-solid-state-bat...
burger_moon 9y ago
I wouldn't underplay their battery tech. They have a competitive race team using a hybrid design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid. They have quite a bit of r&d going into battery tech and racing in general which has a history of pushing automotive breakthroughs, they just don't make headlines like Tesla.
protomyth 9y ago
Mazda and Toyota sell vehicles that I could actually afford to buy. I'm not sure Tesla will be able to get to that price point.
- martin_bech 9y ago
  This will be harsh. But if you cannot afford a Tesla Model 3, you are not a valuable customer (financially speaking). The earning on "low end" cars are almost non existant.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Yeah, but the next car I might have the money, and I won't move to them. Its amazing how many people learn to grow with a brand and folks who do right by them. [edit] This works in other areas. It seems like Apple is going upmarket fast and killing anything on the low end. Its already affected market share. I wonder if it will eventually get into profits.
    - martin_bech 9y ago
      nope "Cupertino, California — Apple today announced financial results for its fiscal 2017 third quarter ended July 1, 2017. The Company posted quarterly revenue of $45.4 billion and quarterly earnings per diluted share of $1.67. These results compare to revenue of $42.4 billion and earnings per diluted share of $1.42 in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 61 percent of the quarter’s revenue." https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/08/apple-reports-third-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/08/apple-reports-third-q...
      - protomyth 9y ago
        I hardly think the iPhone 8 with its higher price (rumor) and the iPod cancellations informed last quarters financial reports. It will take a bit for the effects to be known.
mtgx 9y ago
It's the "Intel will win in mobile because it's so big and powerful!" mentality. The incumbents tend to lose out in such scenarios, especially when they don't go all-in with the new tech and don't do it quickly before the new entrant establishes itself as a powerful player to be followed in the market. So far, virtually all car makers have failed on all of those points.
brudgers 9y ago
They both have combustion/electric hybrids. The operational logistics of battery powered vehicles restrict the range of use cases relative to vehicles that can be quickly refueled using ubiquitous infrastructure -- It is much easier to drive a Tesla into Wyoming than to drive out the other side, while it is no more difficult to drive a Prius across Wyoming than a non-hybrid combustion vehicle. For a while, when I was more bullish on all electric cars, I think it was because I drew the wrong analogy from my smartphone. Sure, smartphone battery life is inconvenient, but unlike an electric vehicle, I can still use it while it recharges. An electric vehicle isn't useful while plugged in; I cannot run to the hardware store for a new flapper when the toilet is leaking when the battery is low. It's similar to railroad motive power trending toward diesel electric...there are use cases where all electric makes sense and justifies the infrastructure, but not the general case.
- tadfisher 9y ago
  Mazda has no hybrid technology. The recent deal to badge-engineer the Mazda 2 as the Toyota iA in the states is in exchange for Toyota's hybrid technology for some future model. Mazda has traditionally been extremely negative on electric or other non-ICE powerplants.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

Why? In all seriousness why? Neither Mazda nor Toyota, has an electric car, competetive batterytech, a charging network or practicly anything, that will give them an edge.

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago

They do have strength in manufacturing. That's gonna matter too.

jonknee 9y ago

Unlike Tesla they both know how to make cars at volume.

karolisd 9y ago
It's easier to learn old tech than new tech. Copying manufacturing is easier than making new software.
- justicezyx 9y ago
  This is definitely wrong. Easiness of tech is determined by their complexity not age.
- hyperbovine 9y ago
  This explains why there are so many companies that make passenger jets.
  - stickfigure 9y ago
    Eh? Modern jets of all types are full of software. An unattributed quote my father told me back in the 80s: "Software saved the aerospace industry. Every other way of adding expense to an airplane also adds weight."
- billylindeman 9y ago
  This mentality highlights the hubris of Silicon Valley. Manufacturing is not easy, and the "tech" that Tesla has isn't unique. Their main advantage is good design which is arguably easier to copy than manufacturing or software.
- brudgers 9y ago
  I live in an area with an automotive industrial base. There are hundreds of tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers in addition to the five vehicle assembly plants within 150 miles. Each required real-estate acquisition and development entitlement and tax incentive pursuit and contract negotiations. There were roads and highway interchanges. Sewer lines were laid and power lines run and electrical substations and ordinary fire stations built. All those suppliers built manufacturing capacity because of established relationships with the automaker. It's why there will be German owned suppliers associated with a German manufacturer and Japan owned suppliers associated with a Japanese manufacturer, etc. Manufacturing at scale happens by outsourcing. It's not the technology that limits, it's business capacity.
- deelowe 9y ago
  > Copying manufacturing is easier than making new software. That's a good one. Next you'll tell me supply chain and logistics is just as simple as buying SAP or even better, that SAP is for fools and you're betting off rolling your own solution.
sixQuarks 9y ago
And you really think Elon will not figure out a way to do the same? SpaceX has already accomplished a much harder task (reusable rockets), which not even nation states have been able to do. Elon's main focus right now is "building the machine that builds the machines", he says they will have the most advanced manufacturing in the world, vehicle or not, and based on his past successes, I don't see anything that will stop him other than death or illness.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > And you really think Elon will not figure out a way to do the same? Scaling car factories across the world is something that took BigCar decades and billions upon billions of dollars. And the level of automation expertise BigCar has is something that Tesla won't have for years to come. > SpaceX has already accomplished a much harder task (reusable rockets), which not even nation states have been able to do. SpaceX had three advantages: 1) no political bullshit like NASA has to suffer from with political aims shifting at least with every new POTUS, only Elon at the top with a clear, extremely long term vision 2) they were free to research in any direction they wanted and in the workflow they wanted, without being stuck on technologies, suppliers etc. due to unions, political collusion or other "government-only issues" 3) massive increase in technological capabilities: SpaceX came at perfectly the right time to enjoy the combination affordable super computing, 3D printing and especially decades of material science and rocketry research, while the Russians were/are stuck due to a lack of money and the ULA was hampered by being stuck on Waterfall-style development and general government issues.
  - sixQuarks 9y ago
    OK, if you feel so strongly, care to make a bet?
  - detritus 9y ago
    Which is why you hire-in talent, as Tesla have done with ex-Audi honcho Peter Hochholdinger to head up their production... https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/tesla-vp-vehicle-production-interview-peter-hochholdinger/ https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/tesla-vp-vehicle-production-i... (yes, yes - it's electrek, a less than unbiased source...)
martin_bech 9y ago
It very important to be able to control your sourcing of parts and materials, and this will be Teslas biggest challenge. However I really believe thats the only thing they have on Tesla, and if Tesla solves this, it will bring a world of hurt on the incumbents.
taheca 9y ago
With a process heavy on manual labor and a huge complicated supply chain making vehicles with over 2000 parts. Tesla are working on making a dark factory. Completely automated and that moves a car along at 1M per minute.
- nihonde 9y ago
  One of the hardest lessons learned at Toyota, according to their management, is that fully automated assembly lines eliminate a crucial opportunity for human ingenuity to intervene. That's why Toyota made a deliberate effort to retain and reintegrate 天才 engineers and mechanics on the line. From a Quartz article in 2014: So far, people taking back work done by robots at over 100 workspaces reduced waste in crankshaft production by 10%, and helped shorten the production line. Others improved axel production and cut costs for chassis parts. “We cannot simply depend on the machines that only repeat the same task over and over again,” project lead Mitsuru Kawai told Bloomberg. “To be the master of the machine, you have to have the knowledge and the skills to teach the machine.”

cdkee 9y ago

If anything, it's getting them to spend on R&D at least/// http://jalopnik.com/toyota-is-developing-new-solid-state-batteries-for-elec-1797294724 http://jalopnik.com/toyota-is-developing-new-solid-state-bat...

burger_moon 9y ago

I wouldn't underplay their battery tech. They have a competitive race team using a hybrid design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid. They have quite a bit of r&d going into battery tech and racing in general which has a history of pushing automotive breakthroughs, they just don't make headlines like Tesla.

protomyth 9y ago

Mazda and Toyota sell vehicles that I could actually afford to buy. I'm not sure Tesla will be able to get to that price point.

martin_bech 9y ago
This will be harsh. But if you cannot afford a Tesla Model 3, you are not a valuable customer (financially speaking). The earning on "low end" cars are almost non existant.
- protomyth 9y ago
  Yeah, but the next car I might have the money, and I won't move to them. Its amazing how many people learn to grow with a brand and folks who do right by them. [edit] This works in other areas. It seems like Apple is going upmarket fast and killing anything on the low end. Its already affected market share. I wonder if it will eventually get into profits.
  - martin_bech 9y ago
    nope "Cupertino, California — Apple today announced financial results for its fiscal 2017 third quarter ended July 1, 2017. The Company posted quarterly revenue of $45.4 billion and quarterly earnings per diluted share of $1.67. These results compare to revenue of $42.4 billion and earnings per diluted share of $1.42 in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 61 percent of the quarter’s revenue." https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/08/apple-reports-third-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2017/08/apple-reports-third-q...
    - protomyth 9y ago
      I hardly think the iPhone 8 with its higher price (rumor) and the iPod cancellations informed last quarters financial reports. It will take a bit for the effects to be known.

mtgx 9y ago

It's the "Intel will win in mobile because it's so big and powerful!" mentality. The incumbents tend to lose out in such scenarios, especially when they don't go all-in with the new tech and don't do it quickly before the new entrant establishes itself as a powerful player to be followed in the market. So far, virtually all car makers have failed on all of those points.

brudgers 9y ago

They both have combustion/electric hybrids. The operational logistics of battery powered vehicles restrict the range of use cases relative to vehicles that can be quickly refueled using ubiquitous infrastructure -- It is much easier to drive a Tesla into Wyoming than to drive out the other side, while it is no more difficult to drive a Prius across Wyoming than a non-hybrid combustion vehicle. For a while, when I was more bullish on all electric cars, I think it was because I drew the wrong analogy from my smartphone. Sure, smartphone battery life is inconvenient, but unlike an electric vehicle, I can still use it while it recharges. An electric vehicle isn't useful while plugged in; I cannot run to the hardware store for a new flapper when the toilet is leaking when the battery is low. It's similar to railroad motive power trending toward diesel electric...there are use cases where all electric makes sense and justifies the infrastructure, but not the general case.

tadfisher 9y ago
Mazda has no hybrid technology. The recent deal to badge-engineer the Mazda 2 as the Toyota iA in the states is in exchange for Toyota's hybrid technology for some future model. Mazda has traditionally been extremely negative on electric or other non-ICE powerplants.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]