9 ms·

300 actions a minute? Truly mastering StarCraft

142 points by MikeCapone 16y ago

MikeCapone 16y ago
What I'd like to know is how these guys avoid suffering from repetitive strain injuries (RSI)? Or do they just play through the pain? Or maybe they drop like flies from the competitive gaming world after a few years because their bodies can't take it anymore? My hands hurt just looking at that video...
- jat850 16y ago
  I'm curious too. One thing that strikes me as unusual (and perhaps others can lend some sort of insight here) is that I have been working with PCs on a daily basis, often for excessive lengths of time (12-16 hours a day or more) for about 24 years now. At no time during any of these years have I ever encountered symptoms of RSI, or required any special breaks. I have terrible posture and I don't go to any lengths to protect myself against RSI, either. I've wondered if perhaps moving in a more digitally-inclined direction has somehow led to us being more conditioned to deal with these repetitive movements, or if I'm just lucky (or, more scary to think about, destined for some sort of horrible crippling onset of RSI at some point soon)?
  - MikeCapone 16y ago
    Chances are you are one of the lucky ones, though it doesn't mean that your luck will not end at some point (your body can compensate for a long time, but when it can't anymore, symptoms can appear rather quickly). This book has been useful to me: http://www.amazon.com/Carpal-Syndrome-Therapy-Computer-Professionals/dp/0965510999 http://www.amazon.com/Carpal-Syndrome-Therapy-Computer-Profe... And in it they mention that some people do all the wrong things and never seem to get RSI. Better not to count on luck, though. I now wish I had taken preventive measures much earlier. I have my first physical therapy appointment next week...
  - Silhouette 16y ago
    I'm much the same. I always figured it was one of those things where when you've always used your body to do certain things from an early age, it's so well adapted that the action is no signficant burden at all. Most people can walk a very long way without becoming too tired, even if they could only run or cycle a short distance. Their threshold for that kind of activity is low enough that walking just doesn't tax them. Personally, I have a limit on how many push-ups or crunches I can do in a set: with training over the years, the numbers have gone up, but I always start to feel it after a while and eventually I have to stop. However, I know people who can outlast a bleep tape and still be doing crunches with correct form and only a little tiredness. It's so easy for them that there is negligible cumulative fatigue. Personally, I've been using computers since I was small, and I also play a musical instrument and play sports that involve a lot of arm/wrist/hand movements. I've never adopted the kind of "bad habits" that many people of my generation who only started typing lots as adults have: I've just always kept my hands relaxed, wrists aligned, etc. because using my hands and fingers efficiently comes naturally to me. Maybe we're both just lucky, but I suspect we also have bodies that have adapted to this particular kind of task from an early age and we've never got into the kinds of bad habits that tend to exacerbate any natural predisposition to RSI. Which is still lucky in a way, I suppose.
    - MikeCapone 16y ago
      Exercising is probably what helps you. Most RSI sufferers don't exercise enough (myself included). I don't think it has to do with habit; a lot of RSI sufferers, myself included, started using computers very young. Humans have evolved to walk long distances, but we haven't evolved to sit all day holding our arms in front of us in a relatively static position, doing repetitive wrist and hand movements. If on top of that you don't exercise, have weak muscles overall and bad blood flow... Well, that's asking for trouble.
  - elai 16y ago
    A lot of IT and Programming work is a lot of reading punctuated by short bursts of typing behaviour and 'walking speed' amounts of clicking. Stuff like typing dictation or pro star craft players is constantly clicking and typing, so I'm not surprised that you don't have RSI problems. Try taking 10 pages of written text and typing it out with no breaks, you'll feel the pain soon enough. Or your like those people who never have problems with their teeth or eyes despite abusing both. Some people are just built better, other people have weaker systems like skin prone to excema, but since it is internal it's less obvious.
- shin_lao 16y ago
  Most of the time, RSI is more in your mind than in your hand.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Flash said in an interview not too long ago that he practiced until his hands were bleeding. I think they do hurt themselves.
  - roel_v 16y ago
    That must've been a figure of speech. How can one actually make their hands bleed by typing? Maybe if you glue sanding paper on your keyboard, but still.
    - xenophanes 16y ago
      You can do it by hitting keys really fast 16 hours a day for several weeks, apparently. It wasn't a figure of speech. You're underestimating how hard the top players train. I said "hands" above but maybe it was only his keyboard (left) hand.
- ShardPhoenix 16y ago
  I think you can fight through the pain. I had it a bit as a kid from excessive game-playing, but I kept going and eventually it went away and never came back.
- light3 16y ago
  I think the right gear has a lot to do with it, a good mouse/mousepad and keyboard can be the difference between night and day. I had a lot of stress with my old mouse because the movements were not precise, that and the right mouse button was hard to click, my hands had to compensate a great deal and this caused a lot of stress. I think that with the right gear and proper technique, you can easily avoid RSI, just look at typists they do 300 apm easy :)
someone_here 16y ago
You may notice that the player repeatedly strikes the same key in quick succession. Usually this is what some call "Spam" and count as actual actions for this metric but are not discrete actions that affect gameplay.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  You're talking about things like selecting groups of units, or what?
  - hubb 16y ago
    the metric came originally from a program called BWChart (http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/ http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/), and calculated APM based on all keystrokes and mouse clicks. So for the first 30 seconds of a game, it's trivial for anyone to have an APM of above 300. The pros, though, are able to maintain an insane 300+ APM over long games while maintaining meticulous control over their units.
  - someone_here 16y ago
    That, also right clicking to move a unit, or setting a rally point, or mashing S or H to make a unit stop. There are a lot of actions that you can do that count in the metric and are spammed a lot.
    - illumin8 16y ago
      Right, but what a lot of people don't realize is that what looks like "spam" is actually careful micro. In order to get the most effective unit control, it's actually necessary to order your units to hold position quite frequently while they're being positioned. It gives you some advantage, for example, if you just send your unit somewhere, it's possible for an enemy player to get close to your units and draw them to a disadvantageous place and kill them, where if you tell them to hold position this isn't possible. So what you are seeing that looks like spam is actually individually grouping large amounts of units and positioning and holding position at just the proper point.
- 16y ago
deleted 16y ago
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johnfn 16y ago
> According to this video, you need to be over 300 APM to be competitive. > That means in 60 seconds, you need to accomplish over 300 things. These are totally different. Although a pro SC player accomplishes a lot more than a beginner, I'm pretty sure there's no one out there that's actually doing 300 different things a minute - they are just pressing buttons 300 times. Most of it is switching between hotkeys to check if units are complete, ordering units to slightly different positions, etc. There's a lot of spamming going on too (like mashing the first hotkey for no good reason) to keep the APM rate high.
- levesque 16y ago
  As was stated in a different comment, the spamming is probably more to keep the player warm than to raise their APM.
  - pixelbath 16y ago
    I keep hearing this, but I have trouble believing it. That's not to say the players don't believe it, but how much "warmer" could your fingers really need to be to manage hotkeys and control groups? It looks like button spamming to me. Every time they are doing something of consequence (engaging in combat, retreating, etc.) there are large (at 300 APM rate) pauses in the key spamming. I've also seen these 300 APM players drag a selection box over their units 5-10 times without assigning them an action or control group, then right-click a destination point another 5-10 times. They're spamming APM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGIJFsPi5U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGIJFsPi5U He says specifically he's not spamming, but warming up. It looks like spam to me, since he's hitting the hotkey to select larvae in between actually assigning them. Edit: I suppose my issue with APM is as a unit of performance or "efficiency" (from the Ars article). It's not either of those; it's how fast you can hit a button, and independent of your win-loss record.
    - jasonlotito 16y ago
      Don't confuse APM as the measurement of performance. It's just one measurement of performance. 400 APM doesn't always beat 200 APM. APM has diminishing returns. However, a high rate of meaningful actions will beat a lower rate.
levesque 16y ago
For Dota/Heroes of Newerth an apm of 100 is plenty enough!
- crystalis 16y ago
  You just compared a one unit game to an entire army.
  - levesque 16y ago
    And explained part of the reason why I prefer the one unit game, because to be a pro it doesn't require you to be a total freak.
    - crystalis 16y ago
      Where did you point out that you prefer the one unit game? Essentially everything you put in this second comment is absent from the first- it's in your head, but not anyone else's until you say it. Anyone who knows what Dota is will know why it only needs 100 apm, but to anyone who doesn't? It's disingenuous. Your value judgment of 300 apm was completely absent, as was your reason for your (again, unmentioned) preference. It's not even clear how you prefer the one unit game- to play, or to watch? They both merit claim as a spectator sport. Is your preference complete, partial, or completely uninspected? Not everyone thinks like you (snark: thankfully), so please do us some favors and try not to leave all your relevant assumptions outside of the conversation.
      - levesque 16y ago
        You really are a nice guy. Seriously, go pick your Internet fights somewhere else.
        crystalis 16y ago
        Care to point out the fight? I'm not seeing it.
- 16y ago
VictorHo 16y ago
If I weren't addicted to Starcraft myself, I would be linking to the "How to lose time and money" discussion. Maybe it's more relevant for me because I'm addicted and not competitive.
d0m 16y ago
By the way, the second player we see is MooN.. many says he's the best player of war3 of all time since he's been at the top scene for so much time. And it's true that in warcraft3, APM is less important than starcraft since you have less "things" to do, but the thing you actually focus on are way more important. And by the way, 300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+ and again, this is not always necessary. For instance, in the first 30-45 seconds of the game, you could actually use only 30 apm or so.. however, spamming (mass clicking) helps some players to focus and be ready for when the game "really" start.
- borisk 16y ago
  >>300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+ Actually all top Terran players(Flash, Ruby, Fantasy) have around 400 APM. The other 2 races are not so micro intensive, but still 300 is not good enough to win a big torney.
  - aperiodic 16y ago
    I hear that Baby's peaks are about 500-600 APM
- natep 16y ago
  I'm curious. Is there a public database out there of matches played between high-profile players and the results? I'd like to do my own analysis of the data if possible.
tman 16y ago
The importance of APM always struck me as evidence of misguided design in Starcraft/Starcraft II. It takes emphasis off the parts I find fun (the strategy), and puts it on the parts of the game that aren't interesting at all: micromanagement of units is just drudgery. To increase the strategy and reduce the drudgery, you could either implement APM restrictions directly on the player (drop clicks, etc. -- very annoying) or you could design units to be maximally effective by default, without micromanagement.
- JeremyBanks 16y ago
  The required APM has dropped pretty significantly in SC2, and you see a wider range within competitive play. There's still a lot of non-strategic crap to deal with, but it's improved and at least your units will usually go in the direction you ask them to.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  Actually, that's the nice thing with SC2. First, APM apparently has gone down with SC2 because a lot of the drudgery is being taken care of. Most of the APM is spent on macro and micro that makes a real difference. Micro is an important element of the game. Watch some good games on YouTube, and you can see how players will micro certain units in a controlled movement (Move/Shoot/Move/Shoot), or splitting different units up rather than just blindly moving them forward in a single mass. That being said, the second part is really where the new Battle.Net and SC2 design shines. I'm not a pro-player by any stretch of the imagination. However, SC2 makes playing online fun. The majority of the games I play are intense, even though I'm hitting only about 40 APM. The match making system is excellent, and so each game I'm playing against people who are usually at my skill level. So rather than change the game, they worked hard at good match making, and they succeeded.
- shasta 16y ago
  Well, the frantic pace of starcraft is a big part of the fun. A high level strategy game can be alot of fun too, but it's a completely different game.
- ShardPhoenix 16y ago
MikeCapone 16y ago
For those who would like to see some high-level games of Starcraft 2 with commentary, check out these Youtube channels: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/Huskystarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/Huskystarcraft It's surprisingly entertaining if you are familiar with the game, and almost all videos are available in 1080p.
- JeremyBanks 16y ago
  If you want some actual insight and analysis, Day[9]'s the way to go: http://day9tv.blip.tv/ http://day9tv.blip.tv/
  - MikeCapone 16y ago
    Yes, I should probably have added that link. But if you are a newbie to Starcraft, you should probably start with HDsc and Husky to get familiar with the game. They're more like sports commentators, while Day[9] is more like a chess teacher.
    - lawn 16y ago
      Actually I think the other way around that you should watch Day9 if you're new as he explains everything better.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - MikeCapone 16y ago
        I can see how that makes sense. I guess it depends on your type of personality and what will hook you more. It's the difference between listening to a song and looking at the sheet music and trying to understand how it works. Some people might like one more than the other in the beginning, and I assumed that most people would probably like to simply listen to the song before diving in the mechanics. But maybe that's wrong with this crowd.
jhg 16y ago
Anyone else sees this as an opportunity to design a better high-performance gaming UI?
- albemuth 16y ago
  The current UI is very well designed for SC2, the video highlights what it takes to play in perhaps the top 1%
omarqureshi 16y ago
mtw DaviN used to have like 90 apm and that was enough to school great players like Zacard. Sure, that was Warcraft 3, but apm isn't everything, it's what you do with it.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  DaviN doesn't "school" Zacard. Even relatively low apm pros like grubby and tod played with 200+ apm, and grubby's apm has gone up recently. I can play with 90 apm, and let me tell you I do lots of stuff late and some not at all. 90 apm is not at all competitive with pros (though you could still win sometimes if something big goes your way, e.g. unscouted expansion and some good creep steals).
  - omarqureshi 16y ago
    Learn your facts sir, what he did at EPS was schooling.
borisk 16y ago
Pro games from Korea: http://www.youtube.com/user/jon747#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/jon747#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/nevake#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/nevake#g/u For first person view search for videos with FPVOD in the name.
- aperiodic 16y ago
  Those will be meaningless for anyone who hasn't watched a lot of pro Starcraft already. It took me six months before I felt comfortable watching games without english commentary. I'd suggest starting with the Gom TV tournaments, which have commentary geared towards those new to Korean Starcraft: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/ http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/ After that, I'd suggest violetak, which does pretty good sports-style commentary, or Day9, who does really in-depth analysis (although he's starting to focus almost exclusively on SC2). violetak: http://www.youtube.com/user/VioleTAK http://www.youtube.com/user/VioleTAK Day9: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104...
ghempton 16y ago
I have played SC, WC3 and the SC2 Beta and I love them all, but I feel as though they need to implement a more complex macro system to allow for advanced players to not need APM's this high. For me personally, it is just too tiring (physically) to attempt to consistently play 100+ APM games.
metamemetics 16y ago
I had programmed an APM counter for the SC2Beta that either: A)autoreports your APM every 10 seconds, or B)warns you when your APM is below a user defined threshold let me know if there is any interest and I'll release it (windows only atm).
hristov 16y ago
APM is not that important. It is just the age old problem that a measurable factor will tend to overshadow other factors that are not as easily measurable. What is much much more important for the game of Starcraft is split second decision making ability to micro and macro, overall awareness, having a large number of possible strategies and unit interactions stored in your mind and ready for instant recall, etc., none of which are really measurable. A player that has less APM can be much better at micromanaging his/her units than a player with larger APM. The less APM player can just make sure that all those clicks and button presses count more. Blizzard decided to measure current APM and give you a real time readout for Starcraft 2 which very predictably resulted in a lot of spamming, i.e., players meaninglessly cliking their mouse and pressing buttons in order to raise their APM and to convince anyone watching them that they are really really good.
kbob 16y ago
Compare this to the number of notes a decent jazz pianist plays. Then compare the number of hours required to really master either craft. (Jazz because jazz is generally extemporaneous, like gaming)
avar 16y ago
I wish there was something like StarCraft, but where you can actually focus on command. A real general wouldn't be ordering individual units around, and it's silly that most strategy games implement things at that level. You should just be able to give high-level commands like "build a base there", "focus on Air-to-Ground development" etc.
- scdlbx 16y ago
  Civilization?
  - avar 16y ago
    It's a strategy game, but it's not in the "compete with someone for 20-60 mins" followed by the game being reset category.
  - ovi256 16y ago
    Are you kidding ? Civ is the king of micromanagement.
- hugh3 16y ago
  The higher-level the commands, the fewer of them you give, and the more the game becomes random and no fun. The stuff that real generals do is, no doubt, impossible to simulate, because it's all staff management and delegation. You don't pick the location of the base, but you do try to pick the right officer to head up the team that's in charge of surveying possible sites for the base. You pick appropriate subordinates and make sure they have the resources they need, and then get yourself driven around from base to base, meeting with the troops and keeping them motivated. Decisions like "actually I think Colonel Smith would be better than Colonel Jones for this particular task" wouldn't make much of a game. The amount of time a general spends making specific warfighting decisions like "Let's attack the enemy at point A at time T with forces F" must be pretty damn minimal.
  - avar 16y ago
    I don't mean quite at that level, I think "Commander" is more accurate than "General" in this context. I just mean that there's a large amount of manual drudgery to playing games like StarCraft, and it would be nice if the game wasn't unfairly balanced in the favor of people who are really good at said drudgery. For example, early in any StarCraft 1 game (I haven't played SC2) you have to do an exact amount of tasks in some exact order to get an early game Zealot or Zergling rush. It'd be nice if you could just command that instead of manually mining a set amount of resources, construct a Gateway just as your nth Probe gets constructed etc. Another example is unit production. If you have resources being mined you have to constantly switch between that and telling the computer again that you want X marines and Y Battle-cruisers or something. It'd be nice if you could just leave that on some production preset so that you could focus on warfare.
zyb09 16y ago
Heh, it seems a lot of Starcraft enthusiasts are lurking around HN. Last time I've been on /r/starcraft's IRC channel half of the people where programmers (no not progamers). Coincidence, you tell me! :)
swah 16y ago
And I get wrist pain from doing C-x b a hundred times per day!
keytweetlouie 16y ago
Simply put. the most useful article on hacker news...ever. I bow in envy to the 300+ apm people.
oskarkv 16y ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=36m37s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=36m37s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=39m05s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=39m05s Looks like he's been playing hockey or something, not a computer game.
bokchoi 16y ago
This is why I like simple turn based games like Wesnoth.
borisk 16y ago
BTW Starcraft 2 beta phase 2 just started in US.
sliverstorm 16y ago
I want to enjoy SC2, but stuff like this makes me worry I'll have to devote my life and become a maniac to be good enough to even have fun.
- babycakes 16y ago
  It is unnecessary to work that hard at it to enjoy it. SC2 matches you against players of equivalent skill level. It may be an ego bruise to be in the bronze level instead of platinum or diamond, but you can still have fun with it. /silver level, APM 65
10ren 16y ago
For typists, 60 words per minute is about 60x6=360 key presses per minute (6 = ave word length of 5 + a space). Watch a guitarist's or pianist's fingers, and it's quite amazing how fast the movements are (even or especially when the fingers are your own). Writing with a pen requires surprisingly rapid movements. It can be quite hard to even follow them - the hand really is quicker than the eye. We have amazing engineering.

142 points by MikeCapone 16y ago

What I'd like to know is how these guys avoid suffering from repetitive strain injuries (RSI)? Or do they just play through the pain? Or maybe they drop like flies from the competitive gaming world after a few years because their bodies can't take it anymore? My hands hurt just looking at that video...

jat850 16y ago
I'm curious too. One thing that strikes me as unusual (and perhaps others can lend some sort of insight here) is that I have been working with PCs on a daily basis, often for excessive lengths of time (12-16 hours a day or more) for about 24 years now. At no time during any of these years have I ever encountered symptoms of RSI, or required any special breaks. I have terrible posture and I don't go to any lengths to protect myself against RSI, either. I've wondered if perhaps moving in a more digitally-inclined direction has somehow led to us being more conditioned to deal with these repetitive movements, or if I'm just lucky (or, more scary to think about, destined for some sort of horrible crippling onset of RSI at some point soon)?
- MikeCapone 16y ago
  Chances are you are one of the lucky ones, though it doesn't mean that your luck will not end at some point (your body can compensate for a long time, but when it can't anymore, symptoms can appear rather quickly). This book has been useful to me: http://www.amazon.com/Carpal-Syndrome-Therapy-Computer-Professionals/dp/0965510999 http://www.amazon.com/Carpal-Syndrome-Therapy-Computer-Profe... And in it they mention that some people do all the wrong things and never seem to get RSI. Better not to count on luck, though. I now wish I had taken preventive measures much earlier. I have my first physical therapy appointment next week...
- Silhouette 16y ago
  I'm much the same. I always figured it was one of those things where when you've always used your body to do certain things from an early age, it's so well adapted that the action is no signficant burden at all. Most people can walk a very long way without becoming too tired, even if they could only run or cycle a short distance. Their threshold for that kind of activity is low enough that walking just doesn't tax them. Personally, I have a limit on how many push-ups or crunches I can do in a set: with training over the years, the numbers have gone up, but I always start to feel it after a while and eventually I have to stop. However, I know people who can outlast a bleep tape and still be doing crunches with correct form and only a little tiredness. It's so easy for them that there is negligible cumulative fatigue. Personally, I've been using computers since I was small, and I also play a musical instrument and play sports that involve a lot of arm/wrist/hand movements. I've never adopted the kind of "bad habits" that many people of my generation who only started typing lots as adults have: I've just always kept my hands relaxed, wrists aligned, etc. because using my hands and fingers efficiently comes naturally to me. Maybe we're both just lucky, but I suspect we also have bodies that have adapted to this particular kind of task from an early age and we've never got into the kinds of bad habits that tend to exacerbate any natural predisposition to RSI. Which is still lucky in a way, I suppose.
  - MikeCapone 16y ago
    Exercising is probably what helps you. Most RSI sufferers don't exercise enough (myself included). I don't think it has to do with habit; a lot of RSI sufferers, myself included, started using computers very young. Humans have evolved to walk long distances, but we haven't evolved to sit all day holding our arms in front of us in a relatively static position, doing repetitive wrist and hand movements. If on top of that you don't exercise, have weak muscles overall and bad blood flow... Well, that's asking for trouble.
- elai 16y ago
  A lot of IT and Programming work is a lot of reading punctuated by short bursts of typing behaviour and 'walking speed' amounts of clicking. Stuff like typing dictation or pro star craft players is constantly clicking and typing, so I'm not surprised that you don't have RSI problems. Try taking 10 pages of written text and typing it out with no breaks, you'll feel the pain soon enough. Or your like those people who never have problems with their teeth or eyes despite abusing both. Some people are just built better, other people have weaker systems like skin prone to excema, but since it is internal it's less obvious.
shin_lao 16y ago
Most of the time, RSI is more in your mind than in your hand.
xenophanes 16y ago
Flash said in an interview not too long ago that he practiced until his hands were bleeding. I think they do hurt themselves.
- roel_v 16y ago
  That must've been a figure of speech. How can one actually make their hands bleed by typing? Maybe if you glue sanding paper on your keyboard, but still.
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    You can do it by hitting keys really fast 16 hours a day for several weeks, apparently. It wasn't a figure of speech. You're underestimating how hard the top players train. I said "hands" above but maybe it was only his keyboard (left) hand.
ShardPhoenix 16y ago
I think you can fight through the pain. I had it a bit as a kid from excessive game-playing, but I kept going and eventually it went away and never came back.
light3 16y ago
I think the right gear has a lot to do with it, a good mouse/mousepad and keyboard can be the difference between night and day. I had a lot of stress with my old mouse because the movements were not precise, that and the right mouse button was hard to click, my hands had to compensate a great deal and this caused a lot of stress. I think that with the right gear and proper technique, you can easily avoid RSI, just look at typists they do 300 apm easy :)

someone_here 16y ago

You may notice that the player repeatedly strikes the same key in quick succession. Usually this is what some call "Spam" and count as actual actions for this metric but are not discrete actions that affect gameplay.

pavel_lishin 16y ago
You're talking about things like selecting groups of units, or what?
- hubb 16y ago
  the metric came originally from a program called BWChart (http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/ http://bwchart.teamliquid.net/), and calculated APM based on all keystrokes and mouse clicks. So for the first 30 seconds of a game, it's trivial for anyone to have an APM of above 300. The pros, though, are able to maintain an insane 300+ APM over long games while maintaining meticulous control over their units.
- someone_here 16y ago
  That, also right clicking to move a unit, or setting a rally point, or mashing S or H to make a unit stop. There are a lot of actions that you can do that count in the metric and are spammed a lot.
  - illumin8 16y ago
    Right, but what a lot of people don't realize is that what looks like "spam" is actually careful micro. In order to get the most effective unit control, it's actually necessary to order your units to hold position quite frequently while they're being positioned. It gives you some advantage, for example, if you just send your unit somewhere, it's possible for an enemy player to get close to your units and draw them to a disadvantageous place and kill them, where if you tell them to hold position this isn't possible. So what you are seeing that looks like spam is actually individually grouping large amounts of units and positioning and holding position at just the proper point.
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johnfn 16y ago

> According to this video, you need to be over 300 APM to be competitive. > That means in 60 seconds, you need to accomplish over 300 things. These are totally different. Although a pro SC player accomplishes a lot more than a beginner, I'm pretty sure there's no one out there that's actually doing 300 different things a minute - they are just pressing buttons 300 times. Most of it is switching between hotkeys to check if units are complete, ordering units to slightly different positions, etc. There's a lot of spamming going on too (like mashing the first hotkey for no good reason) to keep the APM rate high.

levesque 16y ago
As was stated in a different comment, the spamming is probably more to keep the player warm than to raise their APM.
- pixelbath 16y ago
  I keep hearing this, but I have trouble believing it. That's not to say the players don't believe it, but how much "warmer" could your fingers really need to be to manage hotkeys and control groups? It looks like button spamming to me. Every time they are doing something of consequence (engaging in combat, retreating, etc.) there are large (at 300 APM rate) pauses in the key spamming. I've also seen these 300 APM players drag a selection box over their units 5-10 times without assigning them an action or control group, then right-click a destination point another 5-10 times. They're spamming APM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGIJFsPi5U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miGIJFsPi5U He says specifically he's not spamming, but warming up. It looks like spam to me, since he's hitting the hotkey to select larvae in between actually assigning them. Edit: I suppose my issue with APM is as a unit of performance or "efficiency" (from the Ars article). It's not either of those; it's how fast you can hit a button, and independent of your win-loss record.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    Don't confuse APM as the measurement of performance. It's just one measurement of performance. 400 APM doesn't always beat 200 APM. APM has diminishing returns. However, a high rate of meaningful actions will beat a lower rate.

levesque 16y ago

For Dota/Heroes of Newerth an apm of 100 is plenty enough!

crystalis 16y ago
You just compared a one unit game to an entire army.
- levesque 16y ago
  And explained part of the reason why I prefer the one unit game, because to be a pro it doesn't require you to be a total freak.
  - crystalis 16y ago
    Where did you point out that you prefer the one unit game? Essentially everything you put in this second comment is absent from the first- it's in your head, but not anyone else's until you say it. Anyone who knows what Dota is will know why it only needs 100 apm, but to anyone who doesn't? It's disingenuous. Your value judgment of 300 apm was completely absent, as was your reason for your (again, unmentioned) preference. It's not even clear how you prefer the one unit game- to play, or to watch? They both merit claim as a spectator sport. Is your preference complete, partial, or completely uninspected? Not everyone thinks like you (snark: thankfully), so please do us some favors and try not to leave all your relevant assumptions outside of the conversation.
    - levesque 16y ago
      You really are a nice guy. Seriously, go pick your Internet fights somewhere else.
      - crystalis 16y ago
        Care to point out the fight? I'm not seeing it.
16y ago

VictorHo 16y ago

If I weren't addicted to Starcraft myself, I would be linking to the "How to lose time and money" discussion. Maybe it's more relevant for me because I'm addicted and not competitive.

d0m 16y ago

By the way, the second player we see is MooN.. many says he's the best player of war3 of all time since he's been at the top scene for so much time. And it's true that in warcraft3, APM is less important than starcraft since you have less "things" to do, but the thing you actually focus on are way more important. And by the way, 300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+ and again, this is not always necessary. For instance, in the first 30-45 seconds of the game, you could actually use only 30 apm or so.. however, spamming (mass clicking) helps some players to focus and be ready for when the game "really" start.

borisk 16y ago
>>300 apm is an exageration.. usually it's around 250+ Actually all top Terran players(Flash, Ruby, Fantasy) have around 400 APM. The other 2 races are not so micro intensive, but still 300 is not good enough to win a big torney.
- aperiodic 16y ago
  I hear that Baby's peaks are about 500-600 APM
natep 16y ago
I'm curious. Is there a public database out there of matches played between high-profile players and the results? I'd like to do my own analysis of the data if possible.

tman 16y ago

The importance of APM always struck me as evidence of misguided design in Starcraft/Starcraft II. It takes emphasis off the parts I find fun (the strategy), and puts it on the parts of the game that aren't interesting at all: micromanagement of units is just drudgery. To increase the strategy and reduce the drudgery, you could either implement APM restrictions directly on the player (drop clicks, etc. -- very annoying) or you could design units to be maximally effective by default, without micromanagement.

JeremyBanks 16y ago
The required APM has dropped pretty significantly in SC2, and you see a wider range within competitive play. There's still a lot of non-strategic crap to deal with, but it's improved and at least your units will usually go in the direction you ask them to.
jasonlotito 16y ago
Actually, that's the nice thing with SC2. First, APM apparently has gone down with SC2 because a lot of the drudgery is being taken care of. Most of the APM is spent on macro and micro that makes a real difference. Micro is an important element of the game. Watch some good games on YouTube, and you can see how players will micro certain units in a controlled movement (Move/Shoot/Move/Shoot), or splitting different units up rather than just blindly moving them forward in a single mass. That being said, the second part is really where the new Battle.Net and SC2 design shines. I'm not a pro-player by any stretch of the imagination. However, SC2 makes playing online fun. The majority of the games I play are intense, even though I'm hitting only about 40 APM. The match making system is excellent, and so each game I'm playing against people who are usually at my skill level. So rather than change the game, they worked hard at good match making, and they succeeded.
shasta 16y ago
Well, the frantic pace of starcraft is a big part of the fun. A high level strategy game can be alot of fun too, but it's a completely different game.
ShardPhoenix 16y ago

MikeCapone 16y ago

For those who would like to see some high-level games of Starcraft 2 with commentary, check out these Youtube channels: http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/Huskystarcraft http://www.youtube.com/user/Huskystarcraft It's surprisingly entertaining if you are familiar with the game, and almost all videos are available in 1080p.

JeremyBanks 16y ago
If you want some actual insight and analysis, Day[9]'s the way to go: http://day9tv.blip.tv/ http://day9tv.blip.tv/
- MikeCapone 16y ago
  Yes, I should probably have added that link. But if you are a newbie to Starcraft, you should probably start with HDsc and Husky to get familiar with the game. They're more like sports commentators, while Day[9] is more like a chess teacher.
  - lawn 16y ago
    Actually I think the other way around that you should watch Day9 if you're new as he explains everything better.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - MikeCapone 16y ago
      I can see how that makes sense. I guess it depends on your type of personality and what will hook you more. It's the difference between listening to a song and looking at the sheet music and trying to understand how it works. Some people might like one more than the other in the beginning, and I assumed that most people would probably like to simply listen to the song before diving in the mechanics. But maybe that's wrong with this crowd.

jhg 16y ago

Anyone else sees this as an opportunity to design a better high-performance gaming UI?

albemuth 16y ago
The current UI is very well designed for SC2, the video highlights what it takes to play in perhaps the top 1%

omarqureshi 16y ago

mtw DaviN used to have like 90 apm and that was enough to school great players like Zacard. Sure, that was Warcraft 3, but apm isn't everything, it's what you do with it.

xenophanes 16y ago
DaviN doesn't "school" Zacard. Even relatively low apm pros like grubby and tod played with 200+ apm, and grubby's apm has gone up recently. I can play with 90 apm, and let me tell you I do lots of stuff late and some not at all. 90 apm is not at all competitive with pros (though you could still win sometimes if something big goes your way, e.g. unscouted expansion and some good creep steals).
- omarqureshi 16y ago
  Learn your facts sir, what he did at EPS was schooling.

borisk 16y ago

Pro games from Korea: http://www.youtube.com/user/jon747#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/jon747#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/nevake#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/nevake#g/u For first person view search for videos with FPVOD in the name.

aperiodic 16y ago
Those will be meaningless for anyone who hasn't watched a lot of pro Starcraft already. It took me six months before I felt comfortable watching games without english commentary. I'd suggest starting with the Gom TV tournaments, which have commentary geared towards those new to Korean Starcraft: http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/ http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/ After that, I'd suggest violetak, which does pretty good sports-style commentary, or Day9, who does really in-depth analysis (although he's starting to focus almost exclusively on SC2). violetak: http://www.youtube.com/user/VioleTAK http://www.youtube.com/user/VioleTAK Day9: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104...

ghempton 16y ago

I have played SC, WC3 and the SC2 Beta and I love them all, but I feel as though they need to implement a more complex macro system to allow for advanced players to not need APM's this high. For me personally, it is just too tiring (physically) to attempt to consistently play 100+ APM games.

metamemetics 16y ago

I had programmed an APM counter for the SC2Beta that either: A)autoreports your APM every 10 seconds, or B)warns you when your APM is below a user defined threshold let me know if there is any interest and I'll release it (windows only atm).

hristov 16y ago

APM is not that important. It is just the age old problem that a measurable factor will tend to overshadow other factors that are not as easily measurable. What is much much more important for the game of Starcraft is split second decision making ability to micro and macro, overall awareness, having a large number of possible strategies and unit interactions stored in your mind and ready for instant recall, etc., none of which are really measurable. A player that has less APM can be much better at micromanaging his/her units than a player with larger APM. The less APM player can just make sure that all those clicks and button presses count more. Blizzard decided to measure current APM and give you a real time readout for Starcraft 2 which very predictably resulted in a lot of spamming, i.e., players meaninglessly cliking their mouse and pressing buttons in order to raise their APM and to convince anyone watching them that they are really really good.

kbob 16y ago

Compare this to the number of notes a decent jazz pianist plays. Then compare the number of hours required to really master either craft. (Jazz because jazz is generally extemporaneous, like gaming)

avar 16y ago

I wish there was something like StarCraft, but where you can actually focus on command. A real general wouldn't be ordering individual units around, and it's silly that most strategy games implement things at that level. You should just be able to give high-level commands like "build a base there", "focus on Air-to-Ground development" etc.

scdlbx 16y ago
Civilization?
- avar 16y ago
  It's a strategy game, but it's not in the "compete with someone for 20-60 mins" followed by the game being reset category.
- ovi256 16y ago
  Are you kidding ? Civ is the king of micromanagement.
hugh3 16y ago
The higher-level the commands, the fewer of them you give, and the more the game becomes random and no fun. The stuff that real generals do is, no doubt, impossible to simulate, because it's all staff management and delegation. You don't pick the location of the base, but you do try to pick the right officer to head up the team that's in charge of surveying possible sites for the base. You pick appropriate subordinates and make sure they have the resources they need, and then get yourself driven around from base to base, meeting with the troops and keeping them motivated. Decisions like "actually I think Colonel Smith would be better than Colonel Jones for this particular task" wouldn't make much of a game. The amount of time a general spends making specific warfighting decisions like "Let's attack the enemy at point A at time T with forces F" must be pretty damn minimal.
- avar 16y ago
  I don't mean quite at that level, I think "Commander" is more accurate than "General" in this context. I just mean that there's a large amount of manual drudgery to playing games like StarCraft, and it would be nice if the game wasn't unfairly balanced in the favor of people who are really good at said drudgery. For example, early in any StarCraft 1 game (I haven't played SC2) you have to do an exact amount of tasks in some exact order to get an early game Zealot or Zergling rush. It'd be nice if you could just command that instead of manually mining a set amount of resources, construct a Gateway just as your nth Probe gets constructed etc. Another example is unit production. If you have resources being mined you have to constantly switch between that and telling the computer again that you want X marines and Y Battle-cruisers or something. It'd be nice if you could just leave that on some production preset so that you could focus on warfare.

zyb09 16y ago

Heh, it seems a lot of Starcraft enthusiasts are lurking around HN. Last time I've been on /r/starcraft's IRC channel half of the people where programmers (no not progamers). Coincidence, you tell me! :)

swah 16y ago

And I get wrist pain from doing C-x b a hundred times per day!

keytweetlouie 16y ago

Simply put. the most useful article on hacker news...ever. I bow in envy to the 300+ apm people.

oskarkv 16y ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=36m37s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=36m37s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=39m05s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf6RysNq9I#t=39m05s Looks like he's been playing hockey or something, not a computer game.

bokchoi 16y ago

This is why I like simple turn based games like Wesnoth.

borisk 16y ago

BTW Starcraft 2 beta phase 2 just started in US.

sliverstorm 16y ago

I want to enjoy SC2, but stuff like this makes me worry I'll have to devote my life and become a maniac to be good enough to even have fun.

babycakes 16y ago
It is unnecessary to work that hard at it to enjoy it. SC2 matches you against players of equivalent skill level. It may be an ego bruise to be in the bronze level instead of platinum or diamond, but you can still have fun with it. /silver level, APM 65

10ren 16y ago

For typists, 60 words per minute is about 60x6=360 key presses per minute (6 = ave word length of 5 + a space). Watch a guitarist's or pianist's fingers, and it's quite amazing how fast the movements are (even or especially when the fingers are your own). Writing with a pen requires surprisingly rapid movements. It can be quite hard to even follow them - the hand really is quicker than the eye. We have amazing engineering.