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To answer the question, what good does discussing this do? The issue with "Tech + Workplace + Women" is a discussion topic flameworthy of abortion, gun rights,

To answer the question, what good does discussing this do? The issue with "Tech + Workplace + Women" is a discussion topic flameworthy of abortion, gun rights, and the like. To the opposition, you are evil. Nothing good came come of this. There will be people who bulletpoint everything wrong. There'll be others that call for fallacious statements. There will be others that claim that they're not getting proper discussion because of being screamed out. There'll be others that just will be blatantly sexist (and removed/hellbanned). What good does discussing this do? Ive seen various combinations of these same discussions, and devolve to a textural screaming match. Tl;Dr. Boring, no answers, everyone's "wrong" some way and some how. How about nice mathematics or programming puzzles? edit: seriously, modded down? I'd much prefer why you think I'm wrong. I've seen 300+ comment threads about "sexism in the tech workplace" more than a few times. They devolve to screaming matches and dry commentary nobody responds to.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vnchr 9y ago
I think your frustration with the non-objective treatment of the subject is justified. There are a lot of strong feelings around the issues. Confronting our own biases is difficult for most of us.
- occultist_throw 9y ago
  In a way, silent modding down (now -1) posits the view that the guy who posted that 10 page paper had issues with. If anyone dares discuss it, it's because they are on the "Wrong Side", and thus blackballed, punished, or fired. In my case, silenced. This paragraph in the 10 page document says the following: "De-moralize diversity. As soon as we start to moralize an issue, we stop thinking about it in terms of costs and benefits, dismiss anyone that disagrees as immoral, and harshly punish those we see as villains to protect the “victims.”"
acdha 9y ago
The problem is that we're not talking about some aesthetic issue like tabs vs. spaces but rather large groups of peoples’ ability to participate in this industry. Shrugging it off with “what good does it do?” is only possible if you aren't affected by that and it's not a neutral position since it's effectively saying that the reactionary position is okay with you. It also ignores a lot of good which has come out of these discussions. I've seen a number of colleagues become far more thoughtful about interaction patterns, social structure, etc. in response to this discussion and they've uniformly reported that this has improved the quality of work, too. That should not be surprising: after all, do problems in your applications go away if you don't monitor or discuss them? You may similarly have to deal with the guy who's really defensive to protect his perceived status but … he's not going to cause fewer problems if you don't.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I'm curious, what do you think about ebola1717's argument above in this thread?
- occultist_throw 9y ago
  > Shrugging it off with “what good does it do?” is only possible if you aren't affected by that and it's not a neutral position since it's effectively saying that the reactionary position is okay with you. You know nothing about me. I work in academia. We have one of the largest "Gender Studies" (Read womens' studies, men need not apply). Yet our IT in my group is 100% sausagefest. I know of women who've applied. I'm not privy to the interviews at my time and tenure... but it's completely bullshit to say that every woman is not competent to do my job. What can I do? I'm sure I could do an email campaign like this. But I'm 1 person, and I'm looking to work elsewhere due to managerial "issues". It's not MY problem to solve ineffectual and bad management. But my solution is to leave. > It also ignores a lot of good which has come out of these discussions. I've seen a number of colleagues become far more thoughtful about interaction patterns, social structure, etc. in response to this discussion and they've uniformly reported that this has improved the quality of work, too. If one of the most "Liberal" universities can't get it right, why would I expect most anywhere to? > That should not be surprising: after all, do problems in your applications go away if you don't monitor or discuss them? You may similarly have to deal with the guy who's really defensive to protect his perceived status but … he's not going to cause fewer problems if you don't. The nail that sticks out gets the hammer.
marknutter 9y ago
> seriously, modded down? I'd much prefer why you think I'm wrong. I've seen 300+ comment threads about "sexism in the tech workplace" more than a few times. They devolve to screaming matches and dry commentary nobody responds to. "To answer the question, what good does discussing this do?"

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

vnchr 9y ago

I think your frustration with the non-objective treatment of the subject is justified. There are a lot of strong feelings around the issues. Confronting our own biases is difficult for most of us.

occultist_throw 9y ago
In a way, silent modding down (now -1) posits the view that the guy who posted that 10 page paper had issues with. If anyone dares discuss it, it's because they are on the "Wrong Side", and thus blackballed, punished, or fired. In my case, silenced. This paragraph in the 10 page document says the following: "De-moralize diversity. As soon as we start to moralize an issue, we stop thinking about it in terms of costs and benefits, dismiss anyone that disagrees as immoral, and harshly punish those we see as villains to protect the “victims.”"

acdha 9y ago

The problem is that we're not talking about some aesthetic issue like tabs vs. spaces but rather large groups of peoples’ ability to participate in this industry. Shrugging it off with “what good does it do?” is only possible if you aren't affected by that and it's not a neutral position since it's effectively saying that the reactionary position is okay with you. It also ignores a lot of good which has come out of these discussions. I've seen a number of colleagues become far more thoughtful about interaction patterns, social structure, etc. in response to this discussion and they've uniformly reported that this has improved the quality of work, too. That should not be surprising: after all, do problems in your applications go away if you don't monitor or discuss them? You may similarly have to deal with the guy who's really defensive to protect his perceived status but … he's not going to cause fewer problems if you don't.

icebraining 9y ago
I'm curious, what do you think about ebola1717's argument above in this thread?
occultist_throw 9y ago
> Shrugging it off with “what good does it do?” is only possible if you aren't affected by that and it's not a neutral position since it's effectively saying that the reactionary position is okay with you. You know nothing about me. I work in academia. We have one of the largest "Gender Studies" (Read womens' studies, men need not apply). Yet our IT in my group is 100% sausagefest. I know of women who've applied. I'm not privy to the interviews at my time and tenure... but it's completely bullshit to say that every woman is not competent to do my job. What can I do? I'm sure I could do an email campaign like this. But I'm 1 person, and I'm looking to work elsewhere due to managerial "issues". It's not MY problem to solve ineffectual and bad management. But my solution is to leave. > It also ignores a lot of good which has come out of these discussions. I've seen a number of colleagues become far more thoughtful about interaction patterns, social structure, etc. in response to this discussion and they've uniformly reported that this has improved the quality of work, too. If one of the most "Liberal" universities can't get it right, why would I expect most anywhere to? > That should not be surprising: after all, do problems in your applications go away if you don't monitor or discuss them? You may similarly have to deal with the guy who's really defensive to protect his perceived status but … he's not going to cause fewer problems if you don't. The nail that sticks out gets the hammer.

marknutter 9y ago

> seriously, modded down? I'd much prefer why you think I'm wrong. I've seen 300+ comment threads about "sexism in the tech workplace" more than a few times. They devolve to screaming matches and dry commentary nobody responds to. "To answer the question, what good does discussing this do?"