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How the NSA tracks people [video]
- verytrivial 9y ago(That sense of mild threat you feel right now that is preventing you from either watching the video or commenting here is entirely natural and nothing to worry about. Go about your day as normal.)
- ge96 9y agoI often address the NSA by microphone, I doubt they pay attention to me though. I'm just like "Hey NSA, monitoring my "steps"" haha as I try to start a fire.
- jimktrains2 9y agoChilling Effects.
- 65827 9y agoThe goal isn't even to watch everyone, even if you devoted 100% of all federal spending to watching everyone you wouldn't be able to do it. Not enough resources or time. The goal is to chill conversation and thought that is too critical of institutions. Mission accomplished.
- dexterdog 9y agoThe way the government is growing it will be big enough eventually. Remember, they only have to watch those that don't work for the government.
- Bartweiss 9y agoI went to the comments instead of the link to take a look at whether there was a second source that didn't involve hitting a CCC page. Chilling effects indeed.
- neves 9y agoSorry for the ignorance, but whats the problem with CCC pages?
- Bartweiss 9y agoNothing inherent - the CCC is a great organization. But it's already come out that searching for Tails or Tor can set off NSA flags, so I was pointing out that reading Chaos Computer Club accounts of NSA surveillance practices sounds like another likely way to be flagged.
- type0 9y ago> Chaos Computer Club accounts of NSA surveillance practices sounds like another likely way to be flagged. It sure is, meaning that a privacy conscious person is not a friend of a government and needs to be held in check. It's also quite disturbing that NSA is surveilling political parties around the World to excerpt pressure on them and to get geopolitical and economic influence.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- wavefunction 9y agoThe more people who visit ccc sites the better.
- Simon_says 9y agoHow is Bill Binney still walking around a free man? Surely he had security clearances and made an oath not to break them. Is it just that he's riding a fine line and not disclosing classified information?
- jameskegel 9y agoIf you silence him then it gives credence to what he's saying.
- Simon_says 9y agoI don't think that stops them.
- coldtea 9y agoIf the people don't care anyway, and can't see beyond pro/anti-Trump and pro/anti-SJW BS (at their most "political") and the latest pop/tv BS (for the typical apolitical masses), then it doesn't matter if it gets credence for some small minority that cares.
- _joel 9y agoAs a counter-point (regardless of the legalities) if there are, as he conjectures, 1.2 million people on a drone kill-list (with seemingly no-oversight), is it not in the public interest that these things are highlighted by whistle blowers?
- Simon_says 9y agoI didn't really make a point, so I don't know what you think you're countering. I just asked a question, and apparently the answer is that he doesn't disclose classified information.
- _joel 9y ago> Surely he had security clearances and made an oath not to break them This is what I'm countering, perhaps something like this needs to be discussed as it's in the public interest.
- bitexploder 9y agoFor the public source of this information, rewind to 2013: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligenc... https://cryptome.org/2014/01/nsa-prism-dk.pdf https://cryptome.org/2014/01/nsa-prism-dk.pdf You have to put together what we know about PRISM with recent testimony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_v._NSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_v._NSA is extremely important here. The NSA argues it can collect virtually every scrap of data flowing across US communications systems and that it does not violate your rights because as long as no one is looking at it your 4th amendment rights aren't violated. So to "look" at the data they get a secret FISA warrant. Jewel was defeated in court with the same tired argument of Clapper et. al -- "Your facts are inaccurate, but we won't tell you how because it is a state secret. Case dismissed. You let us worry about protecting your privacy within our walled garden." NSA directors have a long history dating back to 2002 with Hayden of misleading congress and then saying "oops, sorry about that." It is a naked power game between congress and the executive branch and a bit of political chicken because the intelligence committees can only go so far before the president/white house can say the legislative branch is undermining your freedom and aren't tough on terror.... which will not go well for anyone at reelection time if it sticks. The back and forth goes on. The picture painted, and I can't dig everything up is that, essentially, the NSA collects almost everything that happens on US soil. It has a legal fiction via executive orders (see Snowden emails) that let it do this. And then if searches of this data turn up anything interesting (since automated computer searches don't require a warrant under this legal fiction) they then apply for a secret FISA warrant and then humans can "look" at the collected data. And since no humans were collecting or looking at your data your 4A rights are fine and safe. edit: I guess I meant to add this legal construction is why the "how" of their collection matters so much. Until we have accurate details of the "how" we can't even begin to argue against them in open court. And since the executive branch tries its very best to keep the "how" secret (for many not obvious reasons!) these things are important. I have seen people dismiss the importance of the technical details as just bits and bytes and what matters is the politics at play, but the "how" is very important as shown by the failure of Jewel to win in court due to specious "state secrets" arguments.
- megous 9y agoSo a quick calculation. 1 zettabyte if stored on 4GB HDD, that's 250 million hard drives. That's without any redundancy. Quarterly production of hard drives is around 100-140 million. That's quite a big slice of global production. The buying operation of this scale should be visible somewhere on the price charts.
- partycoder 9y agoNow, think that the data is immutable, doesn't necessarily have to be in a hard disk. Could be in tape. Backup tapes have significant capacity and are cheaper than hard drives.
- megous 9y agoYes, but why backup the internet if you can't process the data afterwards without waiting for ages for the results.
- Spooky23 9y agoWho says that it isn't? US defense spending built most of the technology industry. That activity didn't stop.
- kim0 9y agoCompression may help a lot though in such use case
- Spaztazim 9y agoRead a rumor once that the tsunami in the Thailand that "knocked out" HDD factories several years was used as cover to buy up large amounts.
- trendia 9y agoDid non-HDD factories in Thailand experience a similar price increase after the tsunamis? (I don't know the answer -- I'm just curious)
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- SuperInEveryWay 9y agoI think it would pretty wise to just assume they are recording and tracking everything you do online and with your phone.
- Best_Teaser 9y agoAs much as I'm arguing in another thread that you shouldn't go too nuts with rampant paranoia, I'm still gonna get a GPS jammer and cell phone jammer and a pile of IR LEDs just to have.
- felon123 9y agoWhat I don't understand is with such capabilities, why weren't Michelle carters texts flagged? Or the heather Mack texts/fb messages. Or the texts revolving around the death of Tim piazza at penn state? If the capability to save these people was there, why wasn't it exercised?
- Chardok 9y agoHe states it in the video: they are incredibly overwhelmed with data coming in and are just using "old search methods" such as word search that he deems ineffective. My understanding is that this bulk data gathering is not as much as preventing attacks but further securing of power for the strange amalgamation that we would call the federal government.
- zipppy 9y agoHaving left his job more than 15 years ago, is there any chance that he's simply not aware of the actual methods they're using? I know in other fields the ability to do concept searching (via LSI and other techniques), rather than simple text based searching, has been in use for many years. His example/problem of a search for "bomb" bringing up noise (such as an email talking about a QB throwing a 'bomb' pass) should have long ago been solved.
- QAPereo 9y agoEven if they cared, they wouldn't risk burning a source/method over a couple of teenagers potentially harming themselves or each other. This apparatus isn't about helping police, it's about state control, ostensibly of things like immigration and terrorism, but realistically as you say it's pure power.
- londons_explore 9y agoThat was years ago - By now, I'm sure they run it all through deep networks and ought to easily be able to "search by thought" - for example, "find all people who have considered or ever talked about blowing up something in a non sarcastic way". Neural networks, with enough training data (which the NSA surely possesses), and enough compute power (which the NSA also possesses), could easily do this.
- Goodlooking 9y agoThey're gathering information on a wide scale for a reason. That's all I know. And its not because of 'terrorists'.
- bobsgame 9y agoHis main point as I understood it seems to be that the problem is the direction of the organization demands that it continue to grow in that direction. More data means more power which demands more funding but also leads to less effectiveness at what they are actually supposed to be doing. It's really smart that he is confronting the problem by trying to create a legal framework that can steer the ship in a better direction. I really appreciate his work.
- trendia 9y agoAs they say, any bureaucracy will eventually be controlled by people trying to preserve the bureaucracy rather than those trying to achieve the actual goals of the bureaucracy. Or: > Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people": > First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration. > Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc. > The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
- bagsam 9y agoApologies if this may sound a little naive, but I can't help but wonder; Can anything be done about this situation within the next couple of years? Or is this process of mass data collection just going to continue and reach an irreversible stage where those agencies' power is out of control?
- dexterdog 9y agoWell if a "hoper and changer" won't do it...
- jasonwatkinspdx 9y agoMaking the issue key for reelection to congress would have an impact. Absent that I think we'll have to wait for a favorable court result, which may be difficult or impossible.
- bahjoite 9y agoOne thing that is being done is to reduce the amount of clear text available for collection: more and more data is encrypted in transit and at rest.
- londons_explore 9y agoGotta be careful with that - make too much encrypted and there will be pressure to change the law to make encryption illegal. I think the existing state with e2e encryption easily accessible to those who care, but not enabled by default in many areas, is probably ideal. I'd like to see more work on encryption of the metadata - for example, hiding who is sending messages to who, and when. The who, where and when of communications leaks nearly as much private data as the content itself. Currently, tech for hiding who, where, and when isn't easy enough to use.
- taheca 9y agoBesides doing all messaging in PGP?
- jancsika 9y agoHere's something that pops in my head every time Binney comes up, but I've never quite articulated it... Let's just assume for the moment that outcome X is good while outcome Y is bad. (I know most people wouldn't agree with that as applied to the NSA's history of wide-net surveillance, but just stick with me...) You design a system that technically delivers outcome X. It could technically deliver outcome Y, but you didn't implement it to deliver that outcome. However, there is nothing at all preventing outcome Y from being achieved with your system other than stated policy. Additionally, your system as designed brings the possibility of outcome Y much closer to fruition at a fraction of the cost of the quotes from contractors from the time. It comes to be known that your system has been trivially revised to achieve outcome Y, and you become a dissident. Now you take on the responsibility of educating people about what can be achieved with your system, and systems like it. I get that part. But here's the question: what was Binney's responsibility in designing the system in the first place? In interviews I've watched he seems to justify his contribution to the program by referring to the policy at the time-- to only use wide-net surveillance data gleaned from the internet on non-U.S. citizen targets overseas, and nobody ever imagined it would be turned around to spy on the domestic population. But has anyone ever asked him if he regrets building a system in the first place that lowered the cost on a type of surveillance the risks of which are not well-understood? In that sense I don't see anything different in what he did than what the Stuxnet authors did. And I'm quite sure if a whistleblower from that team went public someone would ask why they thought it was responsible to build it in the first place.
- contingencies 9y agoYes, there is a lesson there for all of us. For a quick (~4 hour) recent computer game on the same subject (very well executed, IMHO) check out Orwell: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13549725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13549725
- Retra 9y agoCan't you take it as an axiom that if someone can build something that can do Y, that you should assume its construction is inevitable? And isn't it always better to be the one building it first than to be the one building it second?
- throwawaymanbot 9y agoI think some people need to have some backbone, and less fear. I looked at it, I didn't feel any chilling effect. From an engineering point of view its interesting. Maybe I'm too dumb to process fear.
- partycoder 9y agoThe codenames do not provide a material insight, also "what" is being done is very different to "how". An audience such as CCC would be more interested in the "how". It is clear that major Internet companies are colluded with the government, including hardware manufacturers (Intel).
- artur_makly 9y agonice doc made about him : https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKqbOng3dL_bQTCCpf3LIH_8Awvcc6i2XbuHXC3EkcD_tR4lf60oED6Zv9ficZqrLazyurCLHGuD1vAsZevTHy1eQVrnVQ&v=kbVfub-L5Rs https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKqbOng3dL_bQTCCpf3LIH_8...
- Sephr 9y agoBill mentions that the current solutions are much more expansive, so it seems very likely that the NSA uses a private Google Cloud Video Intelligence[1] installation with TPUs in combination with their current iteration of TREASUREMAP. This would enable the NSA to search based on scene descriptions of likely crimes and get government-ID tagging with GPS. This would serve as an effective filtering system and increase the productivity of intelligence operators. 1. https://cloud.google.com/video-intelligence/ https://cloud.google.com/video-intelligence/
- londons_explore 9y ago>very likely that the NSA uses a private Google Cloud Video Intelligence[1] installation with TPU Nope.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- willstrafach 9y agoI'm having trouble understanding what you mean to imply here, or how it relates to likely crimes and GPS tagging. Could you elaborate? Additionally, I am not sure how TREASUREMAP relates to the rest of your comment, as TREASUREMAP is essentially Shodan with more datasets included based on publicly available, commercially available, and collected data. EDIT: Watching video now and I understand your interpretation of TREASUREMAP...this is bizarre...he appears to believe it is something else entirely. Here is the full presentation he referenced for context though (Warning: TS/SI): https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/1301057/tm-m-402.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/1301057/tm-m-402....
- Sephr 9y agoActually, I may be thinking of another program other than TREASUREMAP.