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>The modern equivalent of Victorian worsted-stocking wearers are hipsters, who imitate the wealthy’s penchant for farmers’ markets and fair-trade lattes, even i

>The modern equivalent of Victorian worsted-stocking wearers are hipsters, who imitate the wealthy’s penchant for farmers’ markets and fair-trade lattes, even if they cannot afford a cruise to Antarctica. As a life-long hipster I must object to this. Hipsterdom has nothing to do with wanting to appear well off financially. It is a combination of a longing for authenticity and wishing to separate oneself from the hoi polloi, but through sophistication and coolness. The proportions may vary from hipster to hipster but in no case is it an attempt to imitate the wealthy.

smallnamespace 9y ago
> Hipsterdom has nothing to do with wanting to appear well off financially > through sophistication and coolness In order for cool to exist, there must be un-cool, which is everyone else. So you're completely right in that hipsters aren't trying to show that they're richer than others. Just that they're better. In that sense, hipsters and the conspicuously wealthy are united.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  Everyone has their own definition of cool, hipsters, punks, comic book nerds, star trek nerds, soccer hooligans.... If anything being "normal" allows you to appreciate more forms of cool, even if it's just by gawking.
- Grustaf 9y ago
  >So you're completely right in that hipsters aren't trying to show that they're richer than others. Just that they're better. In that sense, hipsters and the conspicuously wealthy are united. The author claimed that hipsters do what they do to mimic the wealthy, which is not true. The fact that they, as any human being, strive for some kind of status and exclusivity, is a different question altogether.
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    You're right that every person and every community values status to some extent or another. But in most communities, there is a core (often economic) activity or set of values that confers status that is not directly related to the status itself. Being a good maintainer or creating useful projects gives you status in the open source community. Rendering or arguing sound, legally difficult decisions confers status if you're a judge. These communities are fundamentally open: anyone who can do those things can join and raise their status in those communities. On other hand, the conspicuously wealthy and hipsters tend towards the extreme end of the status-seeking, with a lot of emphasis on exclusivity. The source of the status is very closely aligned with the status itself. The conspicuously rich country-club set make a little community for themselves just based on the fact that they can prove to each other how rich they are. And the defining trait of a hipster is being able to show how cool they are, which means that status itself is the key to entry in the community. Please note that I'm not trying to beat up on you -- we need status-driven people in the world, else few would ever want to become a politician or a leader. But I do think that hipsters as a community take status drive much further than most other groups, sometimes to comical effect.
dogma1138 9y ago
You can say that every sub-group tries to separate oneself from the so called masses. The author's view is pretty spot on, while the individual reasoning might be different the overall group mentality does imitate a lot of the practices of the upper classes. I never could find a "hipster" that managed to define what "longing for authenticity" actually means all in all it feels more like a slogan than a philosophy. But spending way more than is appropriate for their income bracket on food, clothes, personal grooming and what one would call "sophisticated art" or antiques is a pretty common denominator. This isn't that different from the middle class in Victorian England going crazy for upscale wool products at the time, and I'm pretty sure it you asked them they wouldn't say that they were imitating the wealthy either.
- Grustaf 9y ago
  >You can say that every sub-group tries to separate oneself from the so called masses Yes, but in different ways. Punk rockers want to shock, nouveaux riches want to impress. >This isn't that different from the middle class in Victorian England going crazy for upscale wool products at the time, and I'm pretty sure it you asked them they wouldn't say that they are immitating the wealthy either. Worsted wool is not upscale, the idea was that it _looked_ like silk. In any case it is pretty obvious that hipsters don't try to imitate the rich. Many of the things they do have nothing at all to do with money, fixed gear hubs, facial hair, obscure bands, tight jeans etc. Even for things that cost a little bit of money, like sour dough bread, artisinal tomatoes and leather saddles, that is not the point, and it's not that expensive - any middle class person can afford them. The point is that you _know_ these obscure bands, you _care_ about how your bread is made. You're not showing off your wealth, you're showing off your sophistication. But the main point is that most of the things that characterise hipsters they don't even have in common with the wealthy, and when they do I think the influence went the other way as often as not. > I never could find a "hipster" that managed to define what "longing for authenticity" actually means all in all it feels more like a slogan than a philosophy. It's simple, it's about buying things that have meaning, that were produced with more love and care than the average mass produced product.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
goatlover 9y ago
I don't see how being a hipster is any more authentic than being anything else. You're still conforming your dress, tastes, speech and behavior to some social group that decides what's appropriate and what's not.
- Grustaf 9y ago
  It's not necessarily inauthentic to fit in with a group, most everyone wants to do that, and hopefully you find a group that suits your taste. But with "longing for authenticity" I was mostly referring to hipster consumption, most of it can be characterised this way, from fixed gear bikes to hand roasted pour over coffee. Of course the whole thing can tend to devolve into obscurity for the sake of obscurity, and it also is hijacked by consumerism like everything else, but it's pretty clear that a strong common factor is "genuineness".
paganel 9y ago
That's the one sentence from the article that seemed false to me, too. Even though I've lately started to meet more and more people who are a combination between hipsters and corporate drones and who have started putting a lot of value into things that the wealthy might have found enjoyable: trips to faraway lands (Philippines, Sri Lanka, Palau), hiring a small boat to hop through the Greek islands in the Aegean, getting their designer clothes from outlets outside of Italian cities like Rome and Milan etc ("everybody wears Zara! you don't want to be seen wearing the same thing as your colleagues") etc
- Grustaf 9y ago
  Yeah like every other movement it tends to become commercialised and mainstreamed over time.
mattlondon 9y ago
For what it is worth, I went on a cruise to Antarctica last year but don't like farmers markets. What does that make me? :) I can only assume I have out-hipstered the self-identifying hipster in the parent comment? The mind boggles :-) As an aside, is a hipster like quantum measurement? Once something/someone/someplace has been labelled as "hipster", it is immediately not-hipster any more? "this restaurant/bar is so hipster!" = immediate & total lack of cool now that everyone knows, and it is time for newer, cooler things to be found away from the maddening crowds? No offence intended to parent post, just general observations - just compare it to MySpace, Soundcloud, Facebook, WhatsApp etc - all really cool & hip initially but once everyone (including your parents!) were using them it got uncool really fast and the next cool & hip stuff was being found elsewhere. Personally I find hipster more of an adjective really, and not a "group" like well-known subcultures - e.g. goth or emo are commonly known subcultre groups that people identify with, but I would say hipster does not fall into a subculture in the same way that Trekkie or Grunger would in my experience.
koliber 9y ago
A true hipster would never admit to being a hipster :)
CuriouslyC 9y ago
Out of curiosity, doesn't it seem a bit ironic that in your desire to distinguish yourself, you identify with an external cultural movement? Seems like if you really wanted to be different, you would focus on just being "you" and ignore what other people are doing. Additionally, sophistication and coolness are subjective. Who are you trying to appear sophisticated and cool to? I've found that I'm much happier being "me" and not caring what other people think. Ironically, people find this attitude pretty cool.
- Helmet 9y ago
  I'm not OP, but I'll respond to some of these. I'm loath to call myself a hipster, but I think that's part of being a hipster in and of itself, so yeah. - doesn't it seem a bit ironic that in your desire to distinguish yourself, you identify with an external cultural movement? No, not really. I don't identify with a movement; I do however have certain tastes and behaviors (as do some of my friends), which other people have labeled as "hipster". The thing is, my tastes and preferences are genuine. I don't like like obscure underground hip-hop because I want to be perceived as hipster, I like it because it's fucking awesome. - Seems like if you really wanted to be different, you would focus on just being "you" and ignore what other people are doing. I do do that. But its not a simple process of just deciding to be "me" one day because I don't know what that "me" actually is. Personal growth is a process of transformation, and sometimes you try new things and realize you don't care much for them, and other times they become a part of who you really are. - Additionally, sophistication and coolness are subjective. Who are you trying to appear sophisticated and cool to? Eh, sure, but its more complicated than that. I want this guy to think I'm cool: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Kerouac_by_Palumbo_2.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Kerouac_... Not these guys: http://www.trbimg.com/img-57e58c72/turbine/la-et-mn-capsule-total-frat-movie-review-20160920-snap http://www.trbimg.com/img-57e58c72/turbine/la-et-mn-capsule-... - I've found that I'm much happier being "me" and not caring what other people think. Sure, I agree. But "me" just happens to be things which most people associate with hipsterdom. - Ironically, people find this attitude pretty cool. I don't think it's ironic - being yourself is cool, and I'm happy for you.
- Grustaf 9y ago
rumcajz 9y ago
I don't know much about hipsters today but back in 1990's we used to be somehow similar in several respects. The term wasn't used back then and one would probably say we were "bohemians". So, can it possibly be that hipsters are really immitating bohemians rather than rich people?
JCharante 9y ago
> As a life-long hipster I must object to this. Hipsterdom has nothing to do with... These sentences just contradict each other. I doubt you're a hipster, because a real hipster would deny being a hipster, and yet you're identifying as one.

smallnamespace 9y ago

> Hipsterdom has nothing to do with wanting to appear well off financially > through sophistication and coolness In order for cool to exist, there must be un-cool, which is everyone else. So you're completely right in that hipsters aren't trying to show that they're richer than others. Just that they're better. In that sense, hipsters and the conspicuously wealthy are united.

dogma1138 9y ago
Everyone has their own definition of cool, hipsters, punks, comic book nerds, star trek nerds, soccer hooligans.... If anything being "normal" allows you to appreciate more forms of cool, even if it's just by gawking.
Grustaf 9y ago
>So you're completely right in that hipsters aren't trying to show that they're richer than others. Just that they're better. In that sense, hipsters and the conspicuously wealthy are united. The author claimed that hipsters do what they do to mimic the wealthy, which is not true. The fact that they, as any human being, strive for some kind of status and exclusivity, is a different question altogether.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  You're right that every person and every community values status to some extent or another. But in most communities, there is a core (often economic) activity or set of values that confers status that is not directly related to the status itself. Being a good maintainer or creating useful projects gives you status in the open source community. Rendering or arguing sound, legally difficult decisions confers status if you're a judge. These communities are fundamentally open: anyone who can do those things can join and raise their status in those communities. On other hand, the conspicuously wealthy and hipsters tend towards the extreme end of the status-seeking, with a lot of emphasis on exclusivity. The source of the status is very closely aligned with the status itself. The conspicuously rich country-club set make a little community for themselves just based on the fact that they can prove to each other how rich they are. And the defining trait of a hipster is being able to show how cool they are, which means that status itself is the key to entry in the community. Please note that I'm not trying to beat up on you -- we need status-driven people in the world, else few would ever want to become a politician or a leader. But I do think that hipsters as a community take status drive much further than most other groups, sometimes to comical effect.

dogma1138 9y ago

You can say that every sub-group tries to separate oneself from the so called masses. The author's view is pretty spot on, while the individual reasoning might be different the overall group mentality does imitate a lot of the practices of the upper classes. I never could find a "hipster" that managed to define what "longing for authenticity" actually means all in all it feels more like a slogan than a philosophy. But spending way more than is appropriate for their income bracket on food, clothes, personal grooming and what one would call "sophisticated art" or antiques is a pretty common denominator. This isn't that different from the middle class in Victorian England going crazy for upscale wool products at the time, and I'm pretty sure it you asked them they wouldn't say that they were imitating the wealthy either.

Grustaf 9y ago
>You can say that every sub-group tries to separate oneself from the so called masses Yes, but in different ways. Punk rockers want to shock, nouveaux riches want to impress. >This isn't that different from the middle class in Victorian England going crazy for upscale wool products at the time, and I'm pretty sure it you asked them they wouldn't say that they are immitating the wealthy either. Worsted wool is not upscale, the idea was that it _looked_ like silk. In any case it is pretty obvious that hipsters don't try to imitate the rich. Many of the things they do have nothing at all to do with money, fixed gear hubs, facial hair, obscure bands, tight jeans etc. Even for things that cost a little bit of money, like sour dough bread, artisinal tomatoes and leather saddles, that is not the point, and it's not that expensive - any middle class person can afford them. The point is that you _know_ these obscure bands, you _care_ about how your bread is made. You're not showing off your wealth, you're showing off your sophistication. But the main point is that most of the things that characterise hipsters they don't even have in common with the wealthy, and when they do I think the influence went the other way as often as not. > I never could find a "hipster" that managed to define what "longing for authenticity" actually means all in all it feels more like a slogan than a philosophy. It's simple, it's about buying things that have meaning, that were produced with more love and care than the average mass produced product.
- dogma1138 9y ago

goatlover 9y ago

I don't see how being a hipster is any more authentic than being anything else. You're still conforming your dress, tastes, speech and behavior to some social group that decides what's appropriate and what's not.

Grustaf 9y ago
It's not necessarily inauthentic to fit in with a group, most everyone wants to do that, and hopefully you find a group that suits your taste. But with "longing for authenticity" I was mostly referring to hipster consumption, most of it can be characterised this way, from fixed gear bikes to hand roasted pour over coffee. Of course the whole thing can tend to devolve into obscurity for the sake of obscurity, and it also is hijacked by consumerism like everything else, but it's pretty clear that a strong common factor is "genuineness".

paganel 9y ago

That's the one sentence from the article that seemed false to me, too. Even though I've lately started to meet more and more people who are a combination between hipsters and corporate drones and who have started putting a lot of value into things that the wealthy might have found enjoyable: trips to faraway lands (Philippines, Sri Lanka, Palau), hiring a small boat to hop through the Greek islands in the Aegean, getting their designer clothes from outlets outside of Italian cities like Rome and Milan etc ("everybody wears Zara! you don't want to be seen wearing the same thing as your colleagues") etc

Grustaf 9y ago
Yeah like every other movement it tends to become commercialised and mainstreamed over time.

mattlondon 9y ago

For what it is worth, I went on a cruise to Antarctica last year but don't like farmers markets. What does that make me? :) I can only assume I have out-hipstered the self-identifying hipster in the parent comment? The mind boggles :-) As an aside, is a hipster like quantum measurement? Once something/someone/someplace has been labelled as "hipster", it is immediately not-hipster any more? "this restaurant/bar is so hipster!" = immediate & total lack of cool now that everyone knows, and it is time for newer, cooler things to be found away from the maddening crowds? No offence intended to parent post, just general observations - just compare it to MySpace, Soundcloud, Facebook, WhatsApp etc - all really cool & hip initially but once everyone (including your parents!) were using them it got uncool really fast and the next cool & hip stuff was being found elsewhere. Personally I find hipster more of an adjective really, and not a "group" like well-known subcultures - e.g. goth or emo are commonly known subcultre groups that people identify with, but I would say hipster does not fall into a subculture in the same way that Trekkie or Grunger would in my experience.

koliber 9y ago

A true hipster would never admit to being a hipster :)

CuriouslyC 9y ago

Out of curiosity, doesn't it seem a bit ironic that in your desire to distinguish yourself, you identify with an external cultural movement? Seems like if you really wanted to be different, you would focus on just being "you" and ignore what other people are doing. Additionally, sophistication and coolness are subjective. Who are you trying to appear sophisticated and cool to? I've found that I'm much happier being "me" and not caring what other people think. Ironically, people find this attitude pretty cool.

Helmet 9y ago
I'm not OP, but I'll respond to some of these. I'm loath to call myself a hipster, but I think that's part of being a hipster in and of itself, so yeah. - doesn't it seem a bit ironic that in your desire to distinguish yourself, you identify with an external cultural movement? No, not really. I don't identify with a movement; I do however have certain tastes and behaviors (as do some of my friends), which other people have labeled as "hipster". The thing is, my tastes and preferences are genuine. I don't like like obscure underground hip-hop because I want to be perceived as hipster, I like it because it's fucking awesome. - Seems like if you really wanted to be different, you would focus on just being "you" and ignore what other people are doing. I do do that. But its not a simple process of just deciding to be "me" one day because I don't know what that "me" actually is. Personal growth is a process of transformation, and sometimes you try new things and realize you don't care much for them, and other times they become a part of who you really are. - Additionally, sophistication and coolness are subjective. Who are you trying to appear sophisticated and cool to? Eh, sure, but its more complicated than that. I want this guy to think I'm cool: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Kerouac_by_Palumbo_2.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Kerouac_... Not these guys: http://www.trbimg.com/img-57e58c72/turbine/la-et-mn-capsule-total-frat-movie-review-20160920-snap http://www.trbimg.com/img-57e58c72/turbine/la-et-mn-capsule-... - I've found that I'm much happier being "me" and not caring what other people think. Sure, I agree. But "me" just happens to be things which most people associate with hipsterdom. - Ironically, people find this attitude pretty cool. I don't think it's ironic - being yourself is cool, and I'm happy for you.
Grustaf 9y ago

rumcajz 9y ago

I don't know much about hipsters today but back in 1990's we used to be somehow similar in several respects. The term wasn't used back then and one would probably say we were "bohemians". So, can it possibly be that hipsters are really immitating bohemians rather than rich people?

JCharante 9y ago

> As a life-long hipster I must object to this. Hipsterdom has nothing to do with... These sentences just contradict each other. I doubt you're a hipster, because a real hipster would deny being a hipster, and yet you're identifying as one.