4 ms·

Diversity seems to be just a slogan these days. There's few contexts where gender, ethnicity or race really matter as specific traits to bring to the table. And

Diversity seems to be just a slogan these days. There's few contexts where gender, ethnicity or race really matter as specific traits to bring to the table. And I wonder if human empathy is not sufficiently capable of overcoming those differences. I mean, me as a white male, should I expect that a black woman can not design a product for me because she doesn't somehow get what it is like to be white or male? Why would the reverse be true in any way?

in_cahoots 9y ago
It's not that you can't design a product, it's that you may not even think of the special considerations required. For example: think of facial recognition apps that fail for dark-skinned people, or apps that aren't usable by the visually impaired or colorblind. Cars, mirrors, and countertops that are inconvenient for people of below-average (male) height. Nobody is purposefully excluding these people in these cases, but nobody is going out of their way to be inclusive either.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  So you're saying that people developing face recognition just forgot black people exist? That even with a few % of employees being black, there wasn't enough testing to figure this out? Versus the obvious answer that there's less contrast on darker skinned people, making it harder? Likewise for all these special considerations. That's the kind of stuff you can checklist. It's no different than keeping track of required behaviour needed to write, say, portable C. The idea you need a member of every group in order to write software for them is quite an odd one. I'm aware of ARM's endianness even though I don't use non-LE platforms for any development. And even then, suppose you can't just go by a checklist, isn't that what testing is for? Kids make poor software engineers, but we figure out how to make software for them.
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    > So you're saying that people developing face recognition just forgot black people exist? Yes. This happens all the time. In addition, simply being aware of what problems exist to be solved is also a huge thing. Engineering isn't just writing good code. It is solving real problems. Having people from a diverse set of backgrounds and experiences will lead to more opportunity to identify problems that can be solved.
- cristianpascu 9y ago
  Although that's not a good example, I agree that there are cases where you need some "inside knowledge" from the group you're targeting. By products I don't mean only software. It could be a social project, or anything else where culture is significantly important and not being intimately familiar with it could endanger the success of the project.
- weberc2 9y ago
  These seem like edge cases. How many CRUD web apps have gaping holes that would be corrected had the developers only been less white? And are the consequences of failed facial recognition so severe? The racial issue was fixed years before I got a camera that could leverage it, and how many people critically depended on it in that window? In fact, I can't think of a single other issue of tech that works better for white people, much less one that is actually important. And even if you were concerned about this, it's not justification to hire in proportion to broader demographics. None of this is to attack diversity, just these particularly weak arguments. We should absolutely maximize opportunity for everyone, because it's the right thing to do; not because it might help to avoid the once-in-a-blue-moon racial faux pas.

in_cahoots 9y ago

It's not that you can't design a product, it's that you may not even think of the special considerations required. For example: think of facial recognition apps that fail for dark-skinned people, or apps that aren't usable by the visually impaired or colorblind. Cars, mirrors, and countertops that are inconvenient for people of below-average (male) height. Nobody is purposefully excluding these people in these cases, but nobody is going out of their way to be inclusive either.

MichaelGG 9y ago
So you're saying that people developing face recognition just forgot black people exist? That even with a few % of employees being black, there wasn't enough testing to figure this out? Versus the obvious answer that there's less contrast on darker skinned people, making it harder? Likewise for all these special considerations. That's the kind of stuff you can checklist. It's no different than keeping track of required behaviour needed to write, say, portable C. The idea you need a member of every group in order to write software for them is quite an odd one. I'm aware of ARM's endianness even though I don't use non-LE platforms for any development. And even then, suppose you can't just go by a checklist, isn't that what testing is for? Kids make poor software engineers, but we figure out how to make software for them.
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  > So you're saying that people developing face recognition just forgot black people exist? Yes. This happens all the time. In addition, simply being aware of what problems exist to be solved is also a huge thing. Engineering isn't just writing good code. It is solving real problems. Having people from a diverse set of backgrounds and experiences will lead to more opportunity to identify problems that can be solved.
cristianpascu 9y ago
Although that's not a good example, I agree that there are cases where you need some "inside knowledge" from the group you're targeting. By products I don't mean only software. It could be a social project, or anything else where culture is significantly important and not being intimately familiar with it could endanger the success of the project.
weberc2 9y ago
These seem like edge cases. How many CRUD web apps have gaping holes that would be corrected had the developers only been less white? And are the consequences of failed facial recognition so severe? The racial issue was fixed years before I got a camera that could leverage it, and how many people critically depended on it in that window? In fact, I can't think of a single other issue of tech that works better for white people, much less one that is actually important. And even if you were concerned about this, it's not justification to hire in proportion to broader demographics. None of this is to attack diversity, just these particularly weak arguments. We should absolutely maximize opportunity for everyone, because it's the right thing to do; not because it might help to avoid the once-in-a-blue-moon racial faux pas.