5 ms·

Thanks for that (as you surmised, I meant "senior" in the broad sense). For those following along, new college grads usually start at Level 3 ("SWE II"), and "S

by boulos 9y ago

Thanks for that (as you surmised, I meant "senior" in the broad sense). For those following along, new college grads usually start at Level 3 ("SWE II"), and "Senior SWE" (Level 5) is considered "high enough". Explicitly the guidance for L5 is that: "All Google engineers are expected to reach this level".

thaumasiotes 9y ago
What are levels 1 and 2?
- klodolph 9y ago
  From what I understand, the levels exist across all job ladders, but the SWE ladder starts at level 3, except in rare cases involving acquisitions. Facebook is the same way, and Amazon starts at level 4.
- chronid 9y ago
  Data center engineers, IIRC.
- ianbicking 9y ago
  Usually companies try to make it so that levels mean roughly the same thing across all professions, so 1 and 2 or 3 mean "almost no experience". So while there might be people at level 1 and 2 in the HR department, or receptionist, or other professions where there is extremely close supervision, they don't hire anyone at that level for engineering. Often management also has a similar level system, but starts at a yet higher level (in the likely case that they never hire engineering managers straight out of college).
  - sn9 9y ago
    That's so confusing for students and new graduates. I would imagine a large number of students aren't applying for those jobs because they think the jobs require more experience than they do, shrinking the talent pool from which companies draw.
    - mattnewton 9y ago
      The numbers aren't advertised that way, and also Google is inverted in that you apply to Google and then after meeting a hiring bar for a level they match you with a specific role.
      - sn9 9y ago
        Right they aren't advertised that way, but they can certainly be interpreted that way. There's rarely any sort of explanation of the numbering system in job posts. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a III requires more experience than a I or II.
        mattnewton 9y ago
        By not advertised I mean it simply isn't in the job posting. You apply to google and they talk to you during be process about the level. https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-engineer-1600-amphitheatre-pkwy-mountain-view-ca-6540009&f=true& https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e... https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20Ads/AdSitelinks_BKWS&gclid=Cj0KCQjwn6DMBRC0ARIsAHZtCePRM94rfPqKfZZELw5yneA7wWQA0LFRXC-ieljNB2okq1xlY37LKDIaAm0kEALw_wcB https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20...
        sn9 9y ago
        Yes but I haven't been talking about just Google, and I have been talking about applying in the first place. My point was that some people may not apply, thinking that those jobs require more experience than they do. Think entry-level vs. junior.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    That doesn't explain why the bottom rung of software engineers has the profession-specific label "SWE II", though. Entry level at eBay is also "Software Engineer 2".
    - wastedhours 9y ago
      I've seen it like that before because it gives hiring managers scope to create different types of job. They might have to hunt for talent at a certain price/responsibility point, but having extra steps on the scale downward allows them to open up a position at a lower price point if needs must. If that rung didn't exist, it's be a much harder ask to get a JD approved in a large co. Also, a number of places need a few spine points below someone's normal band for probationary periods (I once started a role at a lower salary and they bumped me up to my real one on probation pass), or other reasons. Most of it comes down to internal processes for job creation and sign off.
- johan_larson 9y ago
  Engineering interns might be level 2.
  - muzz 9y ago
    I think so. Also engineers in Google India used to start at level 2
throwaway7230 9y ago
Apple has a similar system: I've never met a level 1. Level 2 SWE is kind of entry level, level 3 is mid-career, level 4 is senior. It's pretty achievable to get promoted quickly up to level 4. Some people even come in at level 4 if they come in with experience. Unfortunately level 4 where most people's careers and raises (and stock, from what I hear) come to a screeching halt. I understand there's a level 5 that takes about 10x the effort of going from 2 to 4. You need to be pretty much a world renowned wizard to get there. I think a SVP needs to approve 5's. The vast, vast majority of SWEs will never make level 5, and managers are discouraged from promoting people to 5 unless they are super ultra mega stars.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

by boulos 9y ago

thaumasiotes 9y ago

What are levels 1 and 2?

klodolph 9y ago
From what I understand, the levels exist across all job ladders, but the SWE ladder starts at level 3, except in rare cases involving acquisitions. Facebook is the same way, and Amazon starts at level 4.
chronid 9y ago
Data center engineers, IIRC.
ianbicking 9y ago
Usually companies try to make it so that levels mean roughly the same thing across all professions, so 1 and 2 or 3 mean "almost no experience". So while there might be people at level 1 and 2 in the HR department, or receptionist, or other professions where there is extremely close supervision, they don't hire anyone at that level for engineering. Often management also has a similar level system, but starts at a yet higher level (in the likely case that they never hire engineering managers straight out of college).
- sn9 9y ago
  That's so confusing for students and new graduates. I would imagine a large number of students aren't applying for those jobs because they think the jobs require more experience than they do, shrinking the talent pool from which companies draw.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    The numbers aren't advertised that way, and also Google is inverted in that you apply to Google and then after meeting a hiring bar for a level they match you with a specific role.
    - sn9 9y ago
      Right they aren't advertised that way, but they can certainly be interpreted that way. There's rarely any sort of explanation of the numbering system in job posts. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a III requires more experience than a I or II.
      - mattnewton 9y ago
        By not advertised I mean it simply isn't in the job posting. You apply to google and they talk to you during be process about the level. https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-engineer-1600-amphitheatre-pkwy-mountain-view-ca-6540009&f=true& https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e... https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20Ads/AdSitelinks_BKWS&gclid=Cj0KCQjwn6DMBRC0ARIsAHZtCePRM94rfPqKfZZELw5yneA7wWQA0LFRXC-ieljNB2okq1xlY37LKDIaAm0kEALw_wcB https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20...
        sn9 9y ago
        Yes but I haven't been talking about just Google, and I have been talking about applying in the first place. My point was that some people may not apply, thinking that those jobs require more experience than they do. Think entry-level vs. junior.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  That doesn't explain why the bottom rung of software engineers has the profession-specific label "SWE II", though. Entry level at eBay is also "Software Engineer 2".
  - wastedhours 9y ago
    I've seen it like that before because it gives hiring managers scope to create different types of job. They might have to hunt for talent at a certain price/responsibility point, but having extra steps on the scale downward allows them to open up a position at a lower price point if needs must. If that rung didn't exist, it's be a much harder ask to get a JD approved in a large co. Also, a number of places need a few spine points below someone's normal band for probationary periods (I once started a role at a lower salary and they bumped me up to my real one on probation pass), or other reasons. Most of it comes down to internal processes for job creation and sign off.
johan_larson 9y ago
Engineering interns might be level 2.
- muzz 9y ago
  I think so. Also engineers in Google India used to start at level 2

throwaway7230 9y ago

Apple has a similar system: I've never met a level 1. Level 2 SWE is kind of entry level, level 3 is mid-career, level 4 is senior. It's pretty achievable to get promoted quickly up to level 4. Some people even come in at level 4 if they come in with experience. Unfortunately level 4 where most people's careers and raises (and stock, from what I hear) come to a screeching halt. I understand there's a level 5 that takes about 10x the effort of going from 2 to 4. You need to be pretty much a world renowned wizard to get there. I think a SVP needs to approve 5's. The vast, vast majority of SWEs will never make level 5, and managers are discouraged from promoting people to 5 unless they are super ultra mega stars.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]