6 ms·

Wow, I thought what the author said was hyperbolic until I read this response. Come on now. How many SF Bay Area tech workers would actually assault another emp

Wow, I thought what the author said was hyperbolic until I read this response. Come on now. How many SF Bay Area tech workers would actually assault another employee over comments posted on the Internet? How many software engineers at Google have ever even been in a fight? This "punch you in the face" thing seems to be a sticking point for most of the comments here and I think people are misrepresenting what the author is trying to say. He's not advocating for violence, he's considering a possibility in which he would have to make managerial decisions based on animosity between employees over this "manifesto". That's reasonable. I'm not sure what kind of culture they have at Google, but from my time working as a software developer I've rarely discussed politics at the office. I avoid it. It has the potential to bring down the morale of the team. Just don't see the point in throwing a wrench into the gears of the company you work for to make a political point. Don't you dare interact with him, or else you'll be ostracized as well. Oh please. There's a reason why the writer of this "manifesto" felt the need to grovel and apologize in every opening paragraph. He knew how his peers would take it. You can't just raise into question the fundamental capability of every woman you work with and then expect them to want to work with you. People lose friends over Facebook posts. He deserves to be ostracized for bringing this crap into the office. There are no "thoughtcrimes" here, just someone with a persecution complex fomenting strife amongst his own colleagues. Would you want to work with someone like that?

pacala 9y ago
> [...] raise into question the fundamental capability of every woman you work with [...] Can you please substantiate? Link to the "manifesto", https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320/amp https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  Does this really need explaining? He lists certain traits he thinks are distinct to men and women. Clearly, "ability to handle stress" is important for every job. Measuring someone's stress and perceiving your own stress are highly subjective, as is the definition of success. The manifesto author acts like these things are all objectively observable, but they're not. If you want a data-based analysis on which we can all probably agree, look at the success of Google. They've maintained these values over the years with the same founders and have found quite a bit of success.
  - pacala 9y ago
    > ability to handle stress gender difference https://www.google.com/search?q=ability+to+handle+stress+gender+difference https://www.google.com/search?q=ability+to+handle+stress+gen... First result: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2010/gender-stress.aspx http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2010/gender-st... First paragraph: > Men and women* report different reactions to stress, both physically and mentally. They attempt to manage stress in very different ways and also perceive their ability to do so — and the things that stand in their way — in markedly different ways. Findings suggest that while women are more likely to report physical symptoms associated with stress, they are doing a better job connecting with others in their lives and, at times, these connections are important to their stress management strategies. Note that the Gizmodo publication removed data and references from the text, https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320/amp https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... > The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted. Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role, if at all.
    - unityByFreedom 9y ago
      I'm not sure what you're rebutting. The APA page doesn't support any claim that men or women are better at handling stress. It just says they handle it differently. > Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role. Yeah. On the other hand, the manifesto author suggests that "stress tolerance" is gender based, and may affect your capacity to succeed in tech: "differences may explain why we don't see equal representation of women in tech" It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with".
      - Whooshwhoosh 9y ago
        > It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with". Could you quote the part of the manifesto that says so / gave this impression. I totally understand the offensiveness and stupidity of such a belief -I just fail to see how the author argues for it given that he explicitly states the opposite > Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions. As far as I can see the author is arguing average aptitudes in populations and consequent percentual representation of men and women not being 50/50. Not aptititudes of individuals. As the author also argues for actions that in their eyes increases the attractiveness of tech jobs to women they seem to think of the women that work with them as perfectly capable. I appreciate any help in understanding this point of view. It just feels like we read different manifestos
joveian 9y ago
I agree with everything you say but I would also say that this type of response from a manager (even with the reduced third section) is a major contribution to a hostile work environment. Public ego-tripping is the antithesis of a good manager and saying "you are wrong about everything and suck at life" when you are about to fire someone is always the wrong thing no matter how frustrated you are with that person or how true you think that statment is. I also think that using violent imagery to make a point is a bad idea in almost any context, even if clearly not ment literally. He did at least explicitly say he would not include that part if writing when on the job.

pacala 9y ago

> [...] raise into question the fundamental capability of every woman you work with [...] Can you please substantiate? Link to the "manifesto", https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320/amp https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di...

unityByFreedom 9y ago
Does this really need explaining? He lists certain traits he thinks are distinct to men and women. Clearly, "ability to handle stress" is important for every job. Measuring someone's stress and perceiving your own stress are highly subjective, as is the definition of success. The manifesto author acts like these things are all objectively observable, but they're not. If you want a data-based analysis on which we can all probably agree, look at the success of Google. They've maintained these values over the years with the same founders and have found quite a bit of success.
- pacala 9y ago
  > ability to handle stress gender difference https://www.google.com/search?q=ability+to+handle+stress+gender+difference https://www.google.com/search?q=ability+to+handle+stress+gen... First result: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2010/gender-stress.aspx http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2010/gender-st... First paragraph: > Men and women* report different reactions to stress, both physically and mentally. They attempt to manage stress in very different ways and also perceive their ability to do so — and the things that stand in their way — in markedly different ways. Findings suggest that while women are more likely to report physical symptoms associated with stress, they are doing a better job connecting with others in their lives and, at times, these connections are important to their stress management strategies. Note that the Gizmodo publication removed data and references from the text, https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320/amp https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-di... > The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted. Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role, if at all.
  - unityByFreedom 9y ago
    I'm not sure what you're rebutting. The APA page doesn't support any claim that men or women are better at handling stress. It just says they handle it differently. > Disclaimer: I have no idea how this facet affects one's capacity of performing in a tech role. Yeah. On the other hand, the manifesto author suggests that "stress tolerance" is gender based, and may affect your capacity to succeed in tech: "differences may explain why we don't see equal representation of women in tech" It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with".
    - Whooshwhoosh 9y ago
      > It seems clear to me that the manifesto author "raises into question the fundamental capability of every woman he works with". Could you quote the part of the manifesto that says so / gave this impression. I totally understand the offensiveness and stupidity of such a belief -I just fail to see how the author argues for it given that he explicitly states the opposite > Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions. As far as I can see the author is arguing average aptitudes in populations and consequent percentual representation of men and women not being 50/50. Not aptititudes of individuals. As the author also argues for actions that in their eyes increases the attractiveness of tech jobs to women they seem to think of the women that work with them as perfectly capable. I appreciate any help in understanding this point of view. It just feels like we read different manifestos

joveian 9y ago

I agree with everything you say but I would also say that this type of response from a manager (even with the reduced third section) is a major contribution to a hostile work environment. Public ego-tripping is the antithesis of a good manager and saying "you are wrong about everything and suck at life" when you are about to fire someone is always the wrong thing no matter how frustrated you are with that person or how true you think that statment is. I also think that using violent imagery to make a point is a bad idea in almost any context, even if clearly not ment literally. He did at least explicitly say he would not include that part if writing when on the job.