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Yes and moreover, engineers are expected to have an upward trajectory until they reach senior level. Edit: I'm not sure what happens these days if someone does
by muzz 9y ago
Yes and moreover, engineers are expected to have an upward trajectory until they reach senior level. Edit: I'm not sure what happens these days if someone doesn't get promoted in a timely manner.
- johan_larson 9y agoClarification: "Senior SWE", the formal rank, at Google is indeed a plausible terminal level. If you get there, they'll let you stay indefinitely. But it isn't particularly senior. If you start at Google straight out of college, it's two promotions up, and you may not have supervised anyone higher than an intern.
- boulos 9y agoThanks for that (as you surmised, I meant "senior" in the broad sense). For those following along, new college grads usually start at Level 3 ("SWE II"), and "Senior SWE" (Level 5) is considered "high enough". Explicitly the guidance for L5 is that: "All Google engineers are expected to reach this level".
- thaumasiotes 9y agoWhat are levels 1 and 2?
- klodolph 9y agoFrom what I understand, the levels exist across all job ladders, but the SWE ladder starts at level 3, except in rare cases involving acquisitions. Facebook is the same way, and Amazon starts at level 4.
- chronid 9y agoData center engineers, IIRC.
- ianbicking 9y agoUsually companies try to make it so that levels mean roughly the same thing across all professions, so 1 and 2 or 3 mean "almost no experience". So while there might be people at level 1 and 2 in the HR department, or receptionist, or other professions where there is extremely close supervision, they don't hire anyone at that level for engineering. Often management also has a similar level system, but starts at a yet higher level (in the likely case that they never hire engineering managers straight out of college).
- sn9 9y agoThat's so confusing for students and new graduates. I would imagine a large number of students aren't applying for those jobs because they think the jobs require more experience than they do, shrinking the talent pool from which companies draw.
- mattnewton 9y agoThe numbers aren't advertised that way, and also Google is inverted in that you apply to Google and then after meeting a hiring bar for a level they match you with a specific role.
- sn9 9y agoRight they aren't advertised that way, but they can certainly be interpreted that way. There's rarely any sort of explanation of the numbering system in job posts. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a III requires more experience than a I or II.
- mattnewton 9y agoBy not advertised I mean it simply isn't in the job posting. You apply to google and they talk to you during be process about the level. https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-engineer-1600-amphitheatre-pkwy-mountain-view-ca-6540009&f=true& https://careers.google.com/jobs#!t=jo&jid=/google/software-e... https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20Ads/AdSitelinks_BKWS&gclid=Cj0KCQjwn6DMBRC0ARIsAHZtCePRM94rfPqKfZZELw5yneA7wWQA0LFRXC-ieljNB2okq1xlY37LKDIaAm0kEALw_wcB https://careers.google.com/how-we-hire/?&src=Online/House%20...
- johan_larson 9y agoEngineering interns might be level 2.
- muzz 9y agoI think so. Also engineers in Google India used to start at level 2
- throwaway7230 9y agoApple has a similar system: I've never met a level 1. Level 2 SWE is kind of entry level, level 3 is mid-career, level 4 is senior. It's pretty achievable to get promoted quickly up to level 4. Some people even come in at level 4 if they come in with experience. Unfortunately level 4 where most people's careers and raises (and stock, from what I hear) come to a screeching halt. I understand there's a level 5 that takes about 10x the effort of going from 2 to 4. You need to be pretty much a world renowned wizard to get there. I think a SVP needs to approve 5's. The vast, vast majority of SWEs will never make level 5, and managers are discouraged from promoting people to 5 unless they are super ultra mega stars.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- muzz 9y agoYes, but: 1) promotions are not particularly easy. they are approved by committee, ie not because a manager happens to favor an employee 2) Senior SWE itself is an Individual Contributor role (some say the optimal level if one wants to remain an IC). Only at the next level is leadership required 3) There is a HUGE jump in compensation between Senior SWE and the next level (Staff). Senior SWEs are not pulling anywhere near the $1M/yr referred to in the title
- oh_sigh 9y agoEven staff probably isn't 1m...maybe 800 total
- boulos 9y agoRight. The article instead repeatedly referred to the Group B candidates as making upwards of $600,000: > "Engineers get paid $250,00 to $600,000 range, but there's no sense of urgency." > "estimating that very senior engineering positions can command up to $400,000- $600,000 in total compensation at X, including bonus and stock options. (though now that I quote it, those are all data from the same anonymous engineer working at X)
- iandanforth 9y agoPerspective for those outside of CA, to be in the top 1% you need to be making in excess of $450k / year. Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/top-one-percent-every-us-state-2016-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/top-one-percent-every-us-stat...
- muzz 9y agoAlso by "they'll let you stay indefinitely" you mean there is no expectation of any further promotion. If someone starts slacking, that would theoretically show up in perf