9 ms·
There seems to be conflation in this article between two very different groups. Group A is folks who are acquired and have outsized grants that say vest over N
by boulos 9y ago
There seems to be conflation in this article between two very different groups.
Group A is folks who are acquired and have outsized grants that say vest over N years (N between 2 and 4). It turns out the acquisition was probably a mistake, but the acquiring company made it (and won't own up to it). That's what's described in the Facebook and Microsoft examples. This is the classic "rest and vest" scenario (Note: an acquisition is not required, just any outsized grant).
Group B is "just" engineers at Google, Facebook, etc. getting paid really well for not doing much, while hanging out with the lavish perks. I've never heard of anyone refer to this as "rest and vest". In particular, I found this quote disturbing:
> There are a lot 'coasters' who reached a certain level and don't want to work any harder. They just do a 9-5 job, won’t work to get promoted, don’t want to get promoted.
At Google (and elsewhere), it's considered fine to reach a senior / terminal level and stay there. Is a VP or Director of Engineering lazy if they never move up? Of course not. The same is true of individual contributors.
Finally, the numbers mentioned for compensation are normal for very senior engineers at Google (and again, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.). This isn't "rest and vest", it's just business as usual. I don't particularly agree with the folks who spend their days in classes, taking long lunches, etc. but if they get their work done, what do I care?
- scurvy 9y agoAt Microsoft, we called a lot of these people in Group B, "volunteers". They were with the company through the glory years and had great wealth. They just wanted to come to work every day because they liked saying that they worked at MS. The best response given when I asked one why they still worked, "Why would I spend time at home? Have you met my wife and kids?"
- yulaow 9y agoWell that's a profoundly sad and depressing answer, hoping to never end with that kind of thoughts
- dsacco 9y agoIt's a lighthearted joke.
- scurvy 9y agoIndeed, he said it jokingly.
- pdimitar 9y agoI ain't buying it. I don't know the concrete person, that's a fact. I spent my younger years in much more social jobs compared to programming in cubicles (thank the gods I work remotely for 5+ years now) and out of probably 200+ men I've heard joking about horrible wife and kids, I can assure you no more than 5 were really joking. And I don't mean offhand conversations -- I am talking about people who I've chatted with between midnight and 4 AM. (It was a job with wildly varying schedules) "Joke" in the marital context usually means "I am too scared to confront my wife so I'll pretend I am light-hearted and make-believe I am just joining the popular marital jokes club -- while secretly I am hating every second of my home life". Sorry for cynicism. It's what I found during my whole life. Anecdotal evidence for sure but, my $0.02.
- duncan_bayne 9y agoMy experience - also anecdotal - supports this. Only a small minority of people who 'joke' about their home life are actually joking. See also: http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/ha-ha-only-serious.html
- pdimitar 9y agoYep. People use the joking form of expression to tell truths they wouldn't dare saying with a straight face while the other side knows they're fully serious. Social stigma and dogma are to blame for this. (Off-topic: one of the reasons that the love between me and my wife hasn't at all eroded -- it even got stronger -- after 3 years and a few months is that we're very honest with each other, even for the unpleasant truths. It's not about blinding your eyes; it's about being real plus being loving.)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- cpeterso 9y agoWhen I worked at Microsoft, people joking called the Red West campus "Red Vest" because it was home to fun projects (like internet and Xbox) that attracted people who had vested enough MSFT options that they didn't need to work.
- robertcorey 9y agothat's really sad. it's like they've been domesticated.
- watwut 9y ago> The best response given when I asked one why they still worked, "Why would I spend time at home? Have you met my wife and kids?" I am not sure whether I should fear sorry for the kids or for the father. Having father that jokes about not liking you must sux.
- Kluny 9y agoI dunno, you could take it lightheartedly. It's good for a relationship for the partners to have their own interests and have some time apart.
- kobeya 9y agoI've been in that position, and yes you are spot on.
- ltaaug8 9y agoI once interviewed with a team leader and two of his engineers. When I asked "What qualities characterize a valuable member of your team?", one of the engineers described how hard they work: they work so hard that the team leader cancelled dinner with his wife on their 10th anniversary so he could work late that night. The team leader was beaming with pride. I felt sorry for all of them and especially for that guy's family.
- imesh 9y agoUnless his kids are more like him than you and can take a bit of joking.
- muzz 9y agoYes and moreover, engineers are expected to have an upward trajectory until they reach senior level. Edit: I'm not sure what happens these days if someone doesn't get promoted in a timely manner.
- johan_larson 9y agoClarification: "Senior SWE", the formal rank, at Google is indeed a plausible terminal level. If you get there, they'll let you stay indefinitely. But it isn't particularly senior. If you start at Google straight out of college, it's two promotions up, and you may not have supervised anyone higher than an intern.
- boulos 9y agoThanks for that (as you surmised, I meant "senior" in the broad sense). For those following along, new college grads usually start at Level 3 ("SWE II"), and "Senior SWE" (Level 5) is considered "high enough". Explicitly the guidance for L5 is that: "All Google engineers are expected to reach this level".
- thaumasiotes 9y agoWhat are levels 1 and 2?
- klodolph 9y agoFrom what I understand, the levels exist across all job ladders, but the SWE ladder starts at level 3, except in rare cases involving acquisitions. Facebook is the same way, and Amazon starts at level 4.
- chronid 9y agoData center engineers, IIRC.
- ianbicking 9y agoUsually companies try to make it so that levels mean roughly the same thing across all professions, so 1 and 2 or 3 mean "almost no experience". So while there might be people at level 1 and 2 in the HR department, or receptionist, or other professions where there is extremely close supervision, they don't hire anyone at that level for engineering. Often management also has a similar level system, but starts at a yet higher level (in the likely case that they never hire engineering managers straight out of college).
- cartyboi29 9y agoYo fr you're trash comment is stupid give us a tldr
- rodgerd 9y ago> In particular, I found this quote disturbing Indeed. But this is the world we're in, where coming to work and doing the job you're paid for because you have a life outside of work is considered toxic.
- acchow 9y ago"Rest and vest" also happens for startups early employees who stay through IPO and are still vesting their initial grants. Generally, they've built up enough domain knowledge about the mostly-hacky systems that they are valuable enough for that knowledge alone and don't have to work very hard.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago> In particular, I found this quote disturbing: "There are a lot 'coasters' who reached a certain level and don't want to work any harder. They just do a 9-5 job, won’t work to get promoted, don’t want to get promoted." Jesus, yes. What kind of sociopath thinks that someone who works normal hours and gets the job done is a problem? I work to live, I don't live to work.
- richardknop 9y ago> They just do a 9-5 I agree. How is working hours defined in your contract (9-5) nowadays considered coasting? And why couldn't I get promoted by not working overtime? That sounds unfair. When you sign a contract it doesn't say you need to work overtime and burn yourself out to get promoted. There has been a worrying trend in our industry I have observed when working normal hours is not considered enough anymore and unless you put in hours of overtime every week you are considered a slacker.
- mcv 9y agoAlso, the first engineer mentioned in the article is in no way coasting, but sounds like she's recovering from a burn out. It is incredibly important to let burnt out employees rest and recover.
- Nokinside 9y agoGroub B was part of the reason for Nokia's fall in mobile phones. Nokia decided to develop incentive system package for key employees and it totally screwed up work atmosphere at the senior level. Once Nokia stock skyrocketed, Nokia workforce was divided into two with system that was not all clear. Sudden multimillionaires and those who didn't get anything extra often working side by side. One group started to take it easy, or leaving the company. Others were bitter because they had to work with millionaire coasters who were suddenly more opinionated because getting fired was not an issue. The most ironic thing was that MIT economist Bengt Holmström was a member of Nokia's board of directors when it happened. He received Nobel memorial price for economics last year for developing contract theory and researching incentive systems within companies. He knew it was overly complex and inefficient system, but nobody was interested to know what the number 1 guy in the field was thinking. http://mitsloan.mit.edu/newsroom/articles/in-nobel-prize-lecture-lessons-for-managing-employee-incentives/ http://mitsloan.mit.edu/newsroom/articles/in-nobel-prize-lec...
- taway_1212 9y agoVery senior engineers make seven figures at Google?