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My response here will be unpopular but. Yes, there are cognitive difference, but it doesn't matter. Building software is a complex social event and requires inc

by mempko 9y ago

My response here will be unpopular but. Yes, there are cognitive difference, but it doesn't matter. Building software is a complex social event and requires incalculable amount of different skills sets and team effort. To use single differences to claim men are better at software like the Google guy did is just stupid. It's unscientific conjecture born out of likely deep seated issues many nerds, like me and others, have with the opposite sex. In other words programming likely has become a "safe place" for a certain group of people and they want to protect that space. However, in doing so they end up with a bankrupt culture which likely has a negative effect on the quality of the very software they write. EDIT: in reference to my "Google guy" remark. I think this fight is ultimately about growth vs fixed mindsets. My hunch is self proclaimed "conservatives" have a fixed mindset. Meaning they think people are born a certain way and can't grow.

mcappleton 9y ago
>Yes, there are cognitive difference, but it doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? You make a lot of assertions that I think these guys scientific experiments refute.
- danharaj 9y ago
  What percentage of programming performance is visualizing rotations of 3d objects in your head? The parent's post is based on a reasonable heuristic: Programming is an activity with challenges that require a broad set of skills both technical and social. If such work requires a sufficient diversity of skills to be done effectively, differences in individual skills are less important than the proficiency of the group as a whole. Heuristics are the only thing that can guide here. How many studies are there that bridge the gap between basic cognitive tasks and something as complex as creating software at a company?
- wawerOS 9y ago
  I have two questions. First which claim? I think I see at least two separate claims in memkpos post (that cognitive differences exist and that they don't matter). Second, what experiments are you referring to that disprove memkpos claim? I ask only to clarify.
- gehwartzen 9y ago
  Not OP, but the wiki entry on cognitive differences in the sexes does a good job listing many of them and is well cited: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_cognition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_cognition
  - mcappleton 9y ago
    the guy said that the differences don't matter. I was asking him to back that assertion up.
Pilfer 9y ago
>To use single differences to claim men are better at software like the Google guy did is just stupid No. The google author never claims anything of this sort. In one of his minor points, he argues that why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech may be explained through biological causes, backed by statistical studies. He never claims men are better at software, that's something you made up. His core point, is actually he wants to promote diversity, as in the author believes certain viewpoints (specifically conservative ones) are suppressed at google which prevents honest discussion. He argues this suppression is causing an ideological echo chamber. To me it seems like you responding to what you think his point is, not his actual point. The original document has now been leaked, the author's views are clearly explained in the tl;dr section http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320 http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-div...
- mempko 9y ago
  And I quote. > For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. He clearly believes men are better at the kind of programming google is promoting and believes google shouldn't change because it's bad for business. He thinks women should be casually in the game like doing part time work in programming. Read it again
  - Pilfer 9y ago
    Oh golly, a quote taken without context. Now read it with context: >Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged. That quote does not, in any way, show he "clearly believes men are better at the kind of programming". That section is about the belief that those who work hard should be rewarded, and he does not want Google's culture to change that. >He thinks women should be casually in the game like doing part time work This is just plain false. In the actual quote, he says he wants to make Google's culture more inclusive by "endorsing part time work [because it] can keep more women in tech". This does not mean he believes "women should be casually in the game". He is suggesting changes to Google's culture that could support woman's needs (for example, part time would support mothers who want to devote time caring for their children). Why do you see the need to defend your position with obviously false interpretations? It only takes a casual glance to dispel them. You are reinforcing my point that you are arguing against a phantom of your own invention, not the Google's authors arguments.
meowface 9y ago
You're right, but you're arguing against a strawman here. The people you think you're addressing aren't making those arguments.
- mempko 9y ago
  You're probably right.

by mempko 9y ago

mcappleton 9y ago

>Yes, there are cognitive difference, but it doesn't matter. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? You make a lot of assertions that I think these guys scientific experiments refute.

danharaj 9y ago
What percentage of programming performance is visualizing rotations of 3d objects in your head? The parent's post is based on a reasonable heuristic: Programming is an activity with challenges that require a broad set of skills both technical and social. If such work requires a sufficient diversity of skills to be done effectively, differences in individual skills are less important than the proficiency of the group as a whole. Heuristics are the only thing that can guide here. How many studies are there that bridge the gap between basic cognitive tasks and something as complex as creating software at a company?
wawerOS 9y ago
I have two questions. First which claim? I think I see at least two separate claims in memkpos post (that cognitive differences exist and that they don't matter). Second, what experiments are you referring to that disprove memkpos claim? I ask only to clarify.
gehwartzen 9y ago
Not OP, but the wiki entry on cognitive differences in the sexes does a good job listing many of them and is well cited: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_cognition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_cognition
- mcappleton 9y ago
  the guy said that the differences don't matter. I was asking him to back that assertion up.

Pilfer 9y ago

>To use single differences to claim men are better at software like the Google guy did is just stupid No. The google author never claims anything of this sort. In one of his minor points, he argues that why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech may be explained through biological causes, backed by statistical studies. He never claims men are better at software, that's something you made up. His core point, is actually he wants to promote diversity, as in the author believes certain viewpoints (specifically conservative ones) are suppressed at google which prevents honest discussion. He argues this suppression is causing an ideological echo chamber. To me it seems like you responding to what you think his point is, not his actual point. The original document has now been leaked, the author's views are clearly explained in the tl;dr section http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320 http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-div...

mempko 9y ago
And I quote. > For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. He clearly believes men are better at the kind of programming google is promoting and believes google shouldn't change because it's bad for business. He thinks women should be casually in the game like doing part time work in programming. Read it again
- Pilfer 9y ago
  Oh golly, a quote taken without context. Now read it with context: >Philosophically, I don’t think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimizing for Google—with Google’s diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences. Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google’s funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged. That quote does not, in any way, show he "clearly believes men are better at the kind of programming". That section is about the belief that those who work hard should be rewarded, and he does not want Google's culture to change that. >He thinks women should be casually in the game like doing part time work This is just plain false. In the actual quote, he says he wants to make Google's culture more inclusive by "endorsing part time work [because it] can keep more women in tech". This does not mean he believes "women should be casually in the game". He is suggesting changes to Google's culture that could support woman's needs (for example, part time would support mothers who want to devote time caring for their children). Why do you see the need to defend your position with obviously false interpretations? It only takes a casual glance to dispel them. You are reinforcing my point that you are arguing against a phantom of your own invention, not the Google's authors arguments.

meowface 9y ago

You're right, but you're arguing against a strawman here. The people you think you're addressing aren't making those arguments.

mempko 9y ago
You're probably right.