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You can't save everyone from feeling shitty. It's a similar argument overweight people have against ads showing fit and healthy people, they want those ads rem
by phaed 9y ago
You can't save everyone from feeling shitty. It's a similar argument overweight people have against ads showing fit and healthy people, they want those ads removed cause it makes them feel shitty about themselves. What they need to do is analyze why it makes them feel shitty, and if they don't like what they see, rather than try to change everyone else, they should look into changing themselves. If you accept who you are and are content with it, there is no reason to feel shitty in the first place.
- closeparen 9y agoBeing a sensitive man, an ambitious/aggressive woman, etc. is not and should not be treated like obesity. Expecting conformity to these norms causes a great deal of real-world harm (for starters: repressed emotions creating mental health crises in manly men, timidity leading to poor career outcomes for feminine women), and it is right and proper that we ostracize and exclude people who are looking to do so. We should celebrate people displaying traits that are well-adapted to the situation at hand, not the traits they "should" have based on some immutable identity bit.
- jules 9y agoWhat makes you think you can socially engineer people to appreciate sensitive men? The root of sensitivity is not a respect producing trait for men is because women do not find that sexually desirable on average. Properties that make men respected are the properties that women like: men compete physically (sports or physique), on social status, and on financial success. There is a reason why parents traditionally toughen up boys. The same applies with the genders reversed.
- closeparen 9y agoWe already have done the social engineering by creating communities where it's not socially acceptable to reinforce gender roles. Now we're talking about protecting them from you.
- jules 9y agoYou can enforce political correctness but you cannot enforce respect or attraction.
- closeparen 9y agoAttraction is the last thing we're trying to engineer in the workplace.
- jules 9y agoThis isn't just about the workplace. It is about behavior in general and where this behavior comes from. Even feminists have admitted to me and other feminists have written articles describing that they find the opposite of what they advocate attractive, and if they are unable to socially engineer themselves there is little chance with society in general. Gendered behaviour is incentivised that way. You find reinforcement of gendered behaviour problematic but forget the most powerful reinforcer.
- closeparen 9y agoPeople are adaptable. You don't need to behave the same way at work as you do in your dating life. We should not be enforcing standards of gendered behavior in a business context because they increase attractiveness. In fact this is a common form of sexual harassment - telling women they ought to make themsleves more attractive to you (smile, dress a certain way, etc) when you are strangers or colleagues.
- jules 9y agoWho said anything about telling others at work to make themselves more attractive? We're talking about people making themselves more attractive, such as men who purposely avoid appearing sensitive, and why men do that. You said: > Being a sensitive man, an ambitious/aggressive woman, etc. is not and should not be treated like obesity. My point is that being a sensitive man is treated like obesity, and I mentioned the most powerful driver behind men acting more stoic than they naturally would. Note that I have not made a single normative statement in this thread. I'll make the first one now: if you truly care about not reinforcing gender stereotypes, you should tackle the source not the symptom.
- exabrial 9y agoThe problem may be, you perceive the other's celebration of masculinity as an attack on your persona. One of my favorite movie scenes is from the Matrix, where Neo is told, "Confidence, it means know thyself." This should be read as knowing both your strengths and your weaknesses so vividly, you can predict your performance and emotional state given a situation. Practically, if you accept that you are sensitive [nothing wrong with that, a lot of talented artists and musicians are] and that your self-value is defined elsewhere that typical masculinity, then this whole discussion becomes pointless because your validation will come from within. If you're looking to define self-expectations by society and others, you'll struggle forever to be happy or confident.