5 ms·

Here's something I think about sometimes: we're not far from a future where it would be trivial for every major city to have drones flying over it 24x7, collect

by 1_2__4 9y ago

Here's something I think about sometimes: we're not far from a future where it would be trivial for every major city to have drones flying over it 24x7, collecting everything - license plates, faces, electronic signals, and so on. Cost and technological ability are basically there already, if we're willing to budget the money (as in, it wouldn't cost fifty trillion a year or whatever, its within the realm of financially possible). And all our laws say that is totally legal, even to share every bit of that data with every police department everywhere. Are we ready for that? How would the world respond? How would American respond? Would we collectively decide this is not something we want and pass laws to stop it? How would those work, when the same laws that protect those methods also protect citizens right to photograph anything they want from a public location? Is there any degree of surveillance that Americans would reject, and would the government accept that rejection? Or has the world changed so much now that that's our inevitable future? Honestly I think it's the latter.

endianswap 9y ago
Can't they already do that with cameras and fixed position sensors? Why drones?
- cr4ig_ 9y ago
  Yep, for example they continuously scan license plates with police/parking enforcement vehicle-mounted cameras. Just do a data dump at the end of shift (saves on those pesky mobile data usage fees) for later processing and aggregation into a stored location history.
eldavido 9y ago
I'm reminded of an article in Foreign Affairs arguing that our our data privacy laws need to be based on use rather than collection, e.g. even if you know someone goes to the bar every week, it's illegal to predicate a credit or insurance decision on that knowledge. Might be worth considering.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  When in history have "chinese walls" like that ever worked?
- andrewflnr 9y ago
  Even if I personally know that by happenstance, I'm not allowed to use it? Laws that try to regulate my private thoughts are much scarier than surveillance.
  - geon 9y ago
    That's not a private thought. You would be taking action against another person.
    - andrewflnr 9y ago
      Yes, deciding whether to enter into a contract affects the other person, just like everything else. That's a red herring. The point is, my motives should be my own. Do you really want a court second-guessing every decision you make in the marketplace because it constitutes "taking action against another person"?
peteretep 9y ago
I suspect London will be the first there, simply because of the level of existing surveillance
forapurpose 9y ago
Similar services already exist and are sold to cities; I've seen articles about them for a year at least (in serious publications). I'm not sure they are 24x7 or that they have the resolution to read faces or license plates, though obviously that tech exists, but it's happening now. In one article, they talked about how they record the video, and that later if they are investigating something that happened at location X, they can go back and track all the cars and people that came and went. > How would the world respond? How would American respond? Would we collectively decide this is not something we want and pass laws to stop it? You can see the response of Americans right now, which is nothing. My hypothesis is that the public is reactive to sensational issues (real or not), and is almost never proactive. The public lacks the time, understanding, attention and wisdom to be proactive about even a tiny fraction of public issues; that's why we need experts and "elites" in representative government, not pure democracy. Right now those elites are letting us down, badly, and on many issues.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
eddyg 9y ago
The "Eye in the Sky" episode of Radiolab is definitely worth a listen. http://www.radiolab.org/story/eye-sky/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/eye-sky/
throwawaycanada 9y ago
They already have some up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-military-airships-getting-a-baltimore-area-test-2014dec17-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-military-airships-g... https://youtu.be/WShv8ckdgE4?t=80 https://youtu.be/WShv8ckdgE4?t=80
kagamine 9y ago
Aren't we there yet? Here in Norway I took a summer trip from Oslo to the children's park Hunderfossen north of Hamar. We drove through about 7+ motorway toll stations, all automated, all collecting license plate info used to bill us (and what else?). There are also cameras on poles beside the road to 'monitor traffic'. Norway wants a cashless society, govt. clearly stating it's because they want to put an end to businesses who do cash work and don't declare it, thus avoiding tax (but this is because tax is high, and a lot of people can't afford to get a carpenter in if they have to pay an extra 25% on work and materials). A cashless economy is a traceable economy/individual. There's more, for example cars going fully digital and traceable. You can guess the effects of an 'always on', zero analog society. I personally have not carried cash for about 18 months. I remember going on a trip at the advent of the mobile phone era, and the joy of 'being lost' until I decided not to be. No more. It's enough to make one paranoid.
zo1 9y ago
You mean something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS

by 1_2__4 9y ago

endianswap 9y ago

Can't they already do that with cameras and fixed position sensors? Why drones?

cr4ig_ 9y ago
Yep, for example they continuously scan license plates with police/parking enforcement vehicle-mounted cameras. Just do a data dump at the end of shift (saves on those pesky mobile data usage fees) for later processing and aggregation into a stored location history.

eldavido 9y ago

I'm reminded of an article in Foreign Affairs arguing that our our data privacy laws need to be based on use rather than collection, e.g. even if you know someone goes to the bar every week, it's illegal to predicate a credit or insurance decision on that knowledge. Might be worth considering.

QAPereo 9y ago
When in history have "chinese walls" like that ever worked?
andrewflnr 9y ago
Even if I personally know that by happenstance, I'm not allowed to use it? Laws that try to regulate my private thoughts are much scarier than surveillance.
- geon 9y ago
  That's not a private thought. You would be taking action against another person.
  - andrewflnr 9y ago
    Yes, deciding whether to enter into a contract affects the other person, just like everything else. That's a red herring. The point is, my motives should be my own. Do you really want a court second-guessing every decision you make in the marketplace because it constitutes "taking action against another person"?

peteretep 9y ago

I suspect London will be the first there, simply because of the level of existing surveillance

forapurpose 9y ago

Similar services already exist and are sold to cities; I've seen articles about them for a year at least (in serious publications). I'm not sure they are 24x7 or that they have the resolution to read faces or license plates, though obviously that tech exists, but it's happening now. In one article, they talked about how they record the video, and that later if they are investigating something that happened at location X, they can go back and track all the cars and people that came and went. > How would the world respond? How would American respond? Would we collectively decide this is not something we want and pass laws to stop it? You can see the response of Americans right now, which is nothing. My hypothesis is that the public is reactive to sensational issues (real or not), and is almost never proactive. The public lacks the time, understanding, attention and wisdom to be proactive about even a tiny fraction of public issues; that's why we need experts and "elites" in representative government, not pure democracy. Right now those elites are letting us down, badly, and on many issues.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

eddyg 9y ago

The "Eye in the Sky" episode of Radiolab is definitely worth a listen. http://www.radiolab.org/story/eye-sky/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/eye-sky/

throwawaycanada 9y ago

They already have some up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGxNyaXfJsA http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-military-airships-getting-a-baltimore-area-test-2014dec17-story.html http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-military-airships-g... https://youtu.be/WShv8ckdgE4?t=80 https://youtu.be/WShv8ckdgE4?t=80

kagamine 9y ago

Aren't we there yet? Here in Norway I took a summer trip from Oslo to the children's park Hunderfossen north of Hamar. We drove through about 7+ motorway toll stations, all automated, all collecting license plate info used to bill us (and what else?). There are also cameras on poles beside the road to 'monitor traffic'. Norway wants a cashless society, govt. clearly stating it's because they want to put an end to businesses who do cash work and don't declare it, thus avoiding tax (but this is because tax is high, and a lot of people can't afford to get a carpenter in if they have to pay an extra 25% on work and materials). A cashless economy is a traceable economy/individual. There's more, for example cars going fully digital and traceable. You can guess the effects of an 'always on', zero analog society. I personally have not carried cash for about 18 months. I remember going on a trip at the advent of the mobile phone era, and the joy of 'being lost' until I decided not to be. No more. It's enough to make one paranoid.

zo1 9y ago

You mean something like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS