8 ms·

Is Handwriting History?

36 points by diodorus 9y ago

nine_k 9y ago
It's history the way Fortran is history. Most people in most situations do not use it. Specific people in specific situations still use it, and it's still the best tool for that job.
proactivesvcs 9y ago
Not until I stop writing out poetry drafts. I find a mix of writing, typing, reading aloud and recording my verse helps take a rough draft into something more coherent and whole. Each of these methods must use varying parts of my brain as I find they often find improvements that others miss, but I always start with pen and paper, often getting a good 9/10s of it made that way.
ylere 9y ago
I always carry a pocket sized notebook and a pen with me wherever I go. It's still the fastest method to write something down, it always works and it's socially acceptable to use in all situations. Most people whom I meet, even in private, will see me take out my notebook at the beging of the meeting, taking notes occasionally while we interact. I don't think you could do that with a computer or phone and it allows me to remember important details and action points that I (and the person I'm talking to) would forget otherwise. At work I have larger, A4-sized notebooks that I use similarly. One of the features that I appreciate most is that everything I write down is in chronological order and can be accessed very quickly. In seconds, I can go through last weeks notes and check if I forgot to do something, or even go back a year or more to revisit my thoughts on something that happened back then. Using a pen is also much more expressive, allowing me to highlight/format certain points as a discussion/meeting is ongoing and add illustrations, arrows etc. on the fly. I've seen and tried some of the new epaper notepads and they're definitely getting closer, but for now they're still to slow, clumsy & fragile to replace paper for me.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  I take notes on paper, and then scan them in later. I get the best of both worlds that way.
- andrepd 9y ago
  >Using a pen is also much more expressive, allowing me to highlight/format certain points as a discussion/meeting is ongoing and add illustrations, arrows etc. on the fly. I think this is the killer advantage of handwriting over typing text in a computer/phone/similar. You have much more expressiveness: you can underline, highlight, cross out, circle, draw, make arrows, organize in lists, different indentation levels, different sizes and fonts lay things out along the page as best represents your mental pictures. And it's all simple and frictionless. I'm very very skeptical any computer program can ever be as natural as jotting stuff down with pen and paper.
KineticLensman 9y ago
TL;DR: No (personally, 'no' as well. I sometimes work places where electronic devices aren't allowed)
MajorSauce 9y ago
If only... I recently had to take a standardized business knowledge test and I had to write a disclaimer (eg: "I hereby certify that...") in CURSIVE. When I asked if we really had to write in 19th century writing, she replied that this was the "writing of the business world". No words.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  Historically, block letters were taught to young children first because they were seen as less difficult to form, and therefore writing by someone with little fine motor control would be somewhat legible. Cursive was how adults wrote. In that sense, she was correct. That said, "the writing of the business world" today is Times New Roman (or maybe Helvetica Neue). It replaced the Palmer Method of Business Writing[1], which is quite distinct from the the cursive that is taught in schools today (Zaner-Bloser[2] or D'Nealian[3]). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Method 2: http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A3vbrb/16Grade6Student/html/index.html?page=4 http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A3vbrb/16Grade6Student/htm... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Nealian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Nealian
  - xoroshiro 9y ago
    As someone who was forced to learn Palmer style in school, I must say I always hated the capital Q. I don't know if I just couldn't get it right, or I never really saw it as legible, but it annoyed me that it looked too much like a 2. I went back to block letters in college and never thought much of penmanship. Until college, when I learned a bit of LaTeX and became fascinated with fonts. Still hate that Q though. Thank goodness for computers.
- userbinator 9y ago
  IMHO cursive script is optimised for writability, but not readability. If asked to use it, I'd probably say "I can try if you really insist, but you're unlikely to be able to read it" --- instead, I'll use my "personal font" which looks like either Futura or Courier depending on what I'm writing, and which others have commented quite positively on the legibility of.
smegel 9y ago
Mine is. I had better handwriting in primary school. It can be quite embarrassing on the odd occasion where I need to fill out a paper form (which itself is rarer these days).
- proactivesvcs 9y ago
  I found that once I was writing frequent love letters and, more recently, writing poetry, my handwriting improved quite quickly. Being left-handed, my handwriting is now merely bad. :-)
tnecniv 9y ago
I always carry a pen. I prefer handwriting to taking electronic notes and have never found a touch device I'd rather write on than paper. Aside: Teaching kids cursive also still has value in teaching fine motor skills.
- jrimbault 9y ago
  > Aside: Teaching kids cursive also still has value in teaching fine motor skills. IMO, it's the most important thing, we have to teach fine motor skills very early to little humans if we want them to be full humans.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > if we want them to be full humans This is a circular argument. You just punted the discussion to "what does it mean to be a full human and why is handwriting a necessary part of that." I ride horses, as people have for millennia; I would never claim nonriders are less than human.
    - kurtisc 9y ago
      It's not a circular argument because it wasn't an argument at all. It was a fairly conservative opinion.
  - Baeocystin 9y ago
    It certainly helped me. I struggled with fine motor control as a kid, and it wasn't until a teacher sat me down and made me practice my penmanship over and over again that I got over the hump. I won't say I enjoyed it at the time, but as far as 'educational events I can point to and say this made a difference', it is, perhaps surprisingly, quite high on the list.
  - KateGladstone 9y ago
    Declaring that some human beings are not “full humans” is a very bad idea.
- 9y ago
sametmax 9y ago
Taking note is still faster in with a pen and paper. Thinking as well. And I'm on the very upper scale of computer skills. Lately I even removed some part of my project management tooling to replace it with paper. Very short term actionable data is more productive on paper for me.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  You must be a very slow typist :). I can write on a keyboard much faster than on paper, and I'll bet I can outpace any regular person in this way. One could try and compete by employing some stenography shenanigans, but at that point I'll just enable abbrev mode in my Emacs and beat them again. Where typing fails me, though, is anything other than writing regular, linear text. The moment I expect needing to write a lot of math formulas, or drawing any kind of diagram, I get my paper and pens. Writing by hand is amazingly flexible.
  - cooper12 9y ago
    > Writing by hand is amazingly flexible Once, as an exercise I attempted to transcribe my Statistics notes into LaTeX. I was perfectly capable of inserting the proper math notation, but I never realized how versatile layouts can be so easily made on paper. Things like alternating writing sizes (doable in digital, but usually ends up looking horrible), varying levels of indentation and line height, margin notes, asides, ease of diagrams (again, doable digitally, but time-consuming), notation (crossing things out, circling, arrows, etc), and so many other things. Typesetting for print or digital requires a complete change of layout and even approaches to presentation. You don't realize how much freedom the blank paper gives you until you try translating it to the digital document.
    - setr 9y ago
      Typing on a computer is much easier than by hand Formatting otoh...
    - trentmb 9y ago
      > but I never realized how versatile layouts can be so easily made on paper. Until you need to change them. It's significantly easier to change formatting on a typed document than handwritten.
toomanybeersies 9y ago
I find that the more time I spend around computers, the more I actually want to hand write things. I've recently gotten into the habit of keeping notebooks for various things, I even wrote a letter by hand to someone (something I haven't done since I was a child). There's something so permanent about handwriting, compared to an ephemeral computer file. There's also the fact that notebooks don't run out of battery, or need signal. As far as actual penmanship goes though, I have pretty terrible handwriting, it's getting better. For some reason, buying a fountain pen has markedly improved my handwriting.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  I've spent many hours attempting to transcribe my grandparents' handwritten letters. It's very difficult to decipher. Ironically, even the letters they'd mash out on a typewriter are difficult to decipher, but it's a lot easier than the handwriting. It's not just my grandparents. Their relatives also all had wretched handwriting. I've shown them to many people, and they can hardly make it out, either. I don't think good penmanship was commonplace :-)
  - sseagull 9y ago
    This isn't the first time I've said this, but I believe doing serious genealogy will 'cure' most people of their love of cursive, and maybe writing things by hand in general. You get better at reading it, but there is much more bad handwriting out there than good.
    - WalterBright 9y ago
      With all this work on facial recognition, voice transcription, etc., I'd love to see some AI work on decoding handwriting. It would be a great boon to me.
    - NoGravitas 9y ago
      I harp on and on about this, but the looped cursive of the 19th and 20th centuries is horrible for legibility. Many of the common letterforms blur together, especially when written quickly. There were reasons for adopting it at the time, but it really shouldn't be taught anymore. Today we should be teaching cursive italic, for several reasons (legibility, ease of teaching).
qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
I carry a pen, and a neatly, uniformed folded piece of paper in my wallet. Folded to open like a book, accordion like. When I'm done with it, I open it up and file that sheet of paper for a while just In case I need it. My pen is a G2 0.7 in a machined brass body.
- arkitaip 9y ago
  The G2 is absolutely amazing as a product in that it's far superior to the competition (for my needs at least) and still reasonably priced.
  - BooneJS 9y ago
    I've switched to a Signo DX 0.38 as I find I'm a bit cleaner with it.
  - NoGravitas 9y ago
    I have had trouble with G2s clogging after a bit of use, so that they stop and start unevenly. I've found the Uniball Signo 207 and Vision Elite to be much better, depending on whether you want a gel or liquid ink.
    - qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
      I've gone between both - for a while. The G2 is more "scratchy" on paper - and I like that.
nr152522 9y ago
I'd say it's as much history as cooking food over a fire. Modern cooking appliances make it easier/more practical but there's nothing quite like a good BBQ... :) Have you got a BBQ? My answer to such a question, following some clumsy digging in my kitchen and backyard, is increasingly no. Sometimes, embarrassment giving way to defensiveness, I wonder why anyone bothers to ask. For years a “fire” has sufficed for my cooking of food; it’s months since I chargrilled some meat. Presented with a gas hob, more and more super markets point me to ready meals to cook with my microwave. (I worry that the content of my burger bears no resemblance to real ingredients, but on the flip side—ha! flip!—I’ve begun losing all sense of what that indication of my insides might look like.)
jtarb1 9y ago
The Summer Institute of Linguistics site outside Tucson keeps many of the many languages spoken in Mexico in a room with no vents. The fear is that if a fire occurs, the documents with the writing kept within will be lost. I would include those in history, but I am not a purist so much that I consider that language doesn't evolve.
taesis 9y ago
Not sure if it bothered anyone else enough to look, but I tracked down the missing source for the header image [1]. The U.S. Declaration of Independence [2] is another nice example of handwriting, but unlike a random, faded (and potential non-English?) recipe, it seems very legible and might not have helped the author's argument. [1]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/calliope/5094055919/in/gallery-lorisrizzi-72157631900632635/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/calliope/5094055919/in/gallery... [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/United_S... edit: Phrasing
PeanutCurry 9y ago
I recently got a tablet for use as a home entertainment controller and newspaper and the first thing I wanted was a pen or a stylus with the tactile feedback of a pen. My cursive is far from Declaration of Independence level but as a personal project I've been practicing and it's remarkable how fast writing anything becomes. I'd go so far as the argue children should be taught cursive first and then learn to recognize block letters later. Watch your waitress sometime if she takes notes on a pad and you'll see what I mean. I'd love to see an app that can be trained on my own handwriting and used to fill in fields and create custom gestures to execute complicated commands. I don't know if I'd like to program on something like that, but as far as my day to day living it would be incredibly convenient.
- KateGladstone 9y ago
  Such an app exists, for the iPad and (as I recall) the iPhone; its called WritePad Pro.
  - PeanutCurry 9y ago
    Thanks for the tip. I'm using Android, unfortunately, but I'm sure I can find an equivalent with some google-fu and WritePad as a keyword.
Xoros 9y ago
My brother (43yo) had to take a full day writing test for a new job last week. He, as most people, have not wrote long text for years. He told me that his hand was really painful at the end of the day. I can understand that !
sasaf5 9y ago
Is this headline the first exception to Betteridge's law of headlines?
- adrianoconnor 9y ago
  No. And if your comment was a headline, that wouldn't be either. :)
  - sasaf5 9y ago
    :)

36 points by diodorus 9y ago

It's history the way Fortran is history. Most people in most situations do not use it. Specific people in specific situations still use it, and it's still the best tool for that job.

proactivesvcs 9y ago

Not until I stop writing out poetry drafts. I find a mix of writing, typing, reading aloud and recording my verse helps take a rough draft into something more coherent and whole. Each of these methods must use varying parts of my brain as I find they often find improvements that others miss, but I always start with pen and paper, often getting a good 9/10s of it made that way.

ylere 9y ago

I always carry a pocket sized notebook and a pen with me wherever I go. It's still the fastest method to write something down, it always works and it's socially acceptable to use in all situations. Most people whom I meet, even in private, will see me take out my notebook at the beging of the meeting, taking notes occasionally while we interact. I don't think you could do that with a computer or phone and it allows me to remember important details and action points that I (and the person I'm talking to) would forget otherwise. At work I have larger, A4-sized notebooks that I use similarly. One of the features that I appreciate most is that everything I write down is in chronological order and can be accessed very quickly. In seconds, I can go through last weeks notes and check if I forgot to do something, or even go back a year or more to revisit my thoughts on something that happened back then. Using a pen is also much more expressive, allowing me to highlight/format certain points as a discussion/meeting is ongoing and add illustrations, arrows etc. on the fly. I've seen and tried some of the new epaper notepads and they're definitely getting closer, but for now they're still to slow, clumsy & fragile to replace paper for me.

WalterBright 9y ago
I take notes on paper, and then scan them in later. I get the best of both worlds that way.
andrepd 9y ago
>Using a pen is also much more expressive, allowing me to highlight/format certain points as a discussion/meeting is ongoing and add illustrations, arrows etc. on the fly. I think this is the killer advantage of handwriting over typing text in a computer/phone/similar. You have much more expressiveness: you can underline, highlight, cross out, circle, draw, make arrows, organize in lists, different indentation levels, different sizes and fonts lay things out along the page as best represents your mental pictures. And it's all simple and frictionless. I'm very very skeptical any computer program can ever be as natural as jotting stuff down with pen and paper.

KineticLensman 9y ago

TL;DR: No (personally, 'no' as well. I sometimes work places where electronic devices aren't allowed)

MajorSauce 9y ago

If only... I recently had to take a standardized business knowledge test and I had to write a disclaimer (eg: "I hereby certify that...") in CURSIVE. When I asked if we really had to write in 19th century writing, she replied that this was the "writing of the business world". No words.

LyndsySimon 9y ago
Historically, block letters were taught to young children first because they were seen as less difficult to form, and therefore writing by someone with little fine motor control would be somewhat legible. Cursive was how adults wrote. In that sense, she was correct. That said, "the writing of the business world" today is Times New Roman (or maybe Helvetica Neue). It replaced the Palmer Method of Business Writing[1], which is quite distinct from the the cursive that is taught in schools today (Zaner-Bloser[2] or D'Nealian[3]). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Method 2: http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A3vbrb/16Grade6Student/html/index.html?page=4 http://content.yudu.com/web/y5b2/0A3vbrb/16Grade6Student/htm... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Nealian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'Nealian
- xoroshiro 9y ago
  As someone who was forced to learn Palmer style in school, I must say I always hated the capital Q. I don't know if I just couldn't get it right, or I never really saw it as legible, but it annoyed me that it looked too much like a 2. I went back to block letters in college and never thought much of penmanship. Until college, when I learned a bit of LaTeX and became fascinated with fonts. Still hate that Q though. Thank goodness for computers.
userbinator 9y ago
IMHO cursive script is optimised for writability, but not readability. If asked to use it, I'd probably say "I can try if you really insist, but you're unlikely to be able to read it" --- instead, I'll use my "personal font" which looks like either Futura or Courier depending on what I'm writing, and which others have commented quite positively on the legibility of.

smegel 9y ago

Mine is. I had better handwriting in primary school. It can be quite embarrassing on the odd occasion where I need to fill out a paper form (which itself is rarer these days).

proactivesvcs 9y ago
I found that once I was writing frequent love letters and, more recently, writing poetry, my handwriting improved quite quickly. Being left-handed, my handwriting is now merely bad. :-)

tnecniv 9y ago

I always carry a pen. I prefer handwriting to taking electronic notes and have never found a touch device I'd rather write on than paper. Aside: Teaching kids cursive also still has value in teaching fine motor skills.

jrimbault 9y ago
> Aside: Teaching kids cursive also still has value in teaching fine motor skills. IMO, it's the most important thing, we have to teach fine motor skills very early to little humans if we want them to be full humans.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > if we want them to be full humans This is a circular argument. You just punted the discussion to "what does it mean to be a full human and why is handwriting a necessary part of that." I ride horses, as people have for millennia; I would never claim nonriders are less than human.
  - kurtisc 9y ago
    It's not a circular argument because it wasn't an argument at all. It was a fairly conservative opinion.
- Baeocystin 9y ago
  It certainly helped me. I struggled with fine motor control as a kid, and it wasn't until a teacher sat me down and made me practice my penmanship over and over again that I got over the hump. I won't say I enjoyed it at the time, but as far as 'educational events I can point to and say this made a difference', it is, perhaps surprisingly, quite high on the list.
- KateGladstone 9y ago
  Declaring that some human beings are not “full humans” is a very bad idea.
9y ago

sametmax 9y ago

Taking note is still faster in with a pen and paper. Thinking as well. And I'm on the very upper scale of computer skills. Lately I even removed some part of my project management tooling to replace it with paper. Very short term actionable data is more productive on paper for me.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
You must be a very slow typist :). I can write on a keyboard much faster than on paper, and I'll bet I can outpace any regular person in this way. One could try and compete by employing some stenography shenanigans, but at that point I'll just enable abbrev mode in my Emacs and beat them again. Where typing fails me, though, is anything other than writing regular, linear text. The moment I expect needing to write a lot of math formulas, or drawing any kind of diagram, I get my paper and pens. Writing by hand is amazingly flexible.
- cooper12 9y ago
  > Writing by hand is amazingly flexible Once, as an exercise I attempted to transcribe my Statistics notes into LaTeX. I was perfectly capable of inserting the proper math notation, but I never realized how versatile layouts can be so easily made on paper. Things like alternating writing sizes (doable in digital, but usually ends up looking horrible), varying levels of indentation and line height, margin notes, asides, ease of diagrams (again, doable digitally, but time-consuming), notation (crossing things out, circling, arrows, etc), and so many other things. Typesetting for print or digital requires a complete change of layout and even approaches to presentation. You don't realize how much freedom the blank paper gives you until you try translating it to the digital document.
  - setr 9y ago
    Typing on a computer is much easier than by hand Formatting otoh...
  - trentmb 9y ago
    > but I never realized how versatile layouts can be so easily made on paper. Until you need to change them. It's significantly easier to change formatting on a typed document than handwritten.

toomanybeersies 9y ago

I find that the more time I spend around computers, the more I actually want to hand write things. I've recently gotten into the habit of keeping notebooks for various things, I even wrote a letter by hand to someone (something I haven't done since I was a child). There's something so permanent about handwriting, compared to an ephemeral computer file. There's also the fact that notebooks don't run out of battery, or need signal. As far as actual penmanship goes though, I have pretty terrible handwriting, it's getting better. For some reason, buying a fountain pen has markedly improved my handwriting.

WalterBright 9y ago
I've spent many hours attempting to transcribe my grandparents' handwritten letters. It's very difficult to decipher. Ironically, even the letters they'd mash out on a typewriter are difficult to decipher, but it's a lot easier than the handwriting. It's not just my grandparents. Their relatives also all had wretched handwriting. I've shown them to many people, and they can hardly make it out, either. I don't think good penmanship was commonplace :-)
- sseagull 9y ago
  This isn't the first time I've said this, but I believe doing serious genealogy will 'cure' most people of their love of cursive, and maybe writing things by hand in general. You get better at reading it, but there is much more bad handwriting out there than good.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    With all this work on facial recognition, voice transcription, etc., I'd love to see some AI work on decoding handwriting. It would be a great boon to me.
  - NoGravitas 9y ago
    I harp on and on about this, but the looped cursive of the 19th and 20th centuries is horrible for legibility. Many of the common letterforms blur together, especially when written quickly. There were reasons for adopting it at the time, but it really shouldn't be taught anymore. Today we should be teaching cursive italic, for several reasons (legibility, ease of teaching).

qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago

I carry a pen, and a neatly, uniformed folded piece of paper in my wallet. Folded to open like a book, accordion like. When I'm done with it, I open it up and file that sheet of paper for a while just In case I need it. My pen is a G2 0.7 in a machined brass body.

arkitaip 9y ago
The G2 is absolutely amazing as a product in that it's far superior to the competition (for my needs at least) and still reasonably priced.
- BooneJS 9y ago
  I've switched to a Signo DX 0.38 as I find I'm a bit cleaner with it.
- NoGravitas 9y ago
  I have had trouble with G2s clogging after a bit of use, so that they stop and start unevenly. I've found the Uniball Signo 207 and Vision Elite to be much better, depending on whether you want a gel or liquid ink.
  - qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
    I've gone between both - for a while. The G2 is more "scratchy" on paper - and I like that.

nr152522 9y ago

I'd say it's as much history as cooking food over a fire. Modern cooking appliances make it easier/more practical but there's nothing quite like a good BBQ... :) Have you got a BBQ? My answer to such a question, following some clumsy digging in my kitchen and backyard, is increasingly no. Sometimes, embarrassment giving way to defensiveness, I wonder why anyone bothers to ask. For years a “fire” has sufficed for my cooking of food; it’s months since I chargrilled some meat. Presented with a gas hob, more and more super markets point me to ready meals to cook with my microwave. (I worry that the content of my burger bears no resemblance to real ingredients, but on the flip side—ha! flip!—I’ve begun losing all sense of what that indication of my insides might look like.)

jtarb1 9y ago

The Summer Institute of Linguistics site outside Tucson keeps many of the many languages spoken in Mexico in a room with no vents. The fear is that if a fire occurs, the documents with the writing kept within will be lost. I would include those in history, but I am not a purist so much that I consider that language doesn't evolve.

taesis 9y ago

Not sure if it bothered anyone else enough to look, but I tracked down the missing source for the header image [1]. The U.S. Declaration of Independence [2] is another nice example of handwriting, but unlike a random, faded (and potential non-English?) recipe, it seems very legible and might not have helped the author's argument. [1]: https://www.flickr.com/photos/calliope/5094055919/in/gallery-lorisrizzi-72157631900632635/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/calliope/5094055919/in/gallery... [2]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/United_S... edit: Phrasing

PeanutCurry 9y ago

I recently got a tablet for use as a home entertainment controller and newspaper and the first thing I wanted was a pen or a stylus with the tactile feedback of a pen. My cursive is far from Declaration of Independence level but as a personal project I've been practicing and it's remarkable how fast writing anything becomes. I'd go so far as the argue children should be taught cursive first and then learn to recognize block letters later. Watch your waitress sometime if she takes notes on a pad and you'll see what I mean. I'd love to see an app that can be trained on my own handwriting and used to fill in fields and create custom gestures to execute complicated commands. I don't know if I'd like to program on something like that, but as far as my day to day living it would be incredibly convenient.

KateGladstone 9y ago
Such an app exists, for the iPad and (as I recall) the iPhone; its called WritePad Pro.
- PeanutCurry 9y ago
  Thanks for the tip. I'm using Android, unfortunately, but I'm sure I can find an equivalent with some google-fu and WritePad as a keyword.

Xoros 9y ago

My brother (43yo) had to take a full day writing test for a new job last week. He, as most people, have not wrote long text for years. He told me that his hand was really painful at the end of the day. I can understand that !

sasaf5 9y ago

Is this headline the first exception to Betteridge's law of headlines?

adrianoconnor 9y ago
No. And if your comment was a headline, that wouldn't be either. :)
- sasaf5 9y ago
  :)