12 ms·

American Dream is Elusive for New Generation

50 points by rmundo 16y ago

rmundo 16y ago
I was surprised to read this article, as it seemed to me from reading HN and other tech-related news sources that there are more opportunities than ever. Am I wrong?
- varjag 16y ago
  From the article: he doesn't want to be an entrepreneur or work in small-fish business. He is set for building a traditional career in a finance corporation. A yuppie born into wrong era.
  - gaius 16y ago
    Killer quote: "If you talk to 20 people," Scott said, "you’ll find only one in manufacturing and everyone else in finance Umm, no...
    - daok 16y ago
      Well in Canada (Montreal city) they are a lot of student in Mangament/Finance and a lot less in other fields. People think finance is the "only" way to make big easy money now.
      - GFischer 16y ago
        All the talk about the big bonuses in Wall Street during the US crisis sent the wrong signals, I suspect. I daydream about working at a Wall Street bank from what I read here on HN occasionally about the paychecks (currently can't because I'm not an US or EU citizen)
- watty 16y ago
  I haven't finished the article but I'm guessing his resume isn't stellar or he has no networking. I had no problems finding a job 2 years ago but this may have been to me being a CS major. Everyone I knew and still keep in touch with also found. This includes a few with < 3.0 GPA and many were business majors.
- hvs 16y ago
  I guess it depends on what you mean by "oppotunities". While the economy is still slow, companies are hiring. However, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that engineering/technology degrees are much more marketable than traditional liberal arts degrees, which can give those of us in the tech-space a bit of a distorted view of the job market. That said, the article chooses to focus on an entitled douchebag.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  There are plenty of opportunities out there. Not all of them are equal, but they exist. He had an opportunity, but didn't take it. He'd prefer to sit and wait. If anything, it makes it look like the company is better off without him.
- starkfist 16y ago
  Yes, you are wrong. If you aren't a computer programmer, there are few jobs, even if you have a degree in something hard, like Physics. If you live somewhere like Arizona, there are few jobs even if you are a computer programmer.
francoisdevlin 16y ago
This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot that deserves what he gets. The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job. It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two potential employees, one who is "waiting for the right position" and another that is "trying to get by", I go with the latter every time. The first guy is definitely out of touch with reality, and the second guy is doing what it takes to get stuff done. I want him working for me.
- reader5000 16y ago
  Yeah they could have picked a more sympathetic subject.
  - bbwharris 16y ago
    I recall another story about a girl who attended NYU and has a mountain of debt and can't find work. At the end of the article it stated her major, and it wasn't something that was marketable in today's economy. Which sounds slightly arrogant. As a reader, I can see the mistakes made. The reality in any economy is that a womens studies graduate from NYU is going to have more difficulty finding work than say an engineering graduate from a state university. If the goals for employment are self-actualization, then be prepared for a hunt in the beginning. If the goals are to earn a paycheck - any paycheck, then there is plenty of work out there. I am afraid that a lot of people in my generation have a very strong sense of entitlement.
    - angstrom 16y ago
      The entitled douche bags may be in the spotlight, but our generation is perfectly prepared. We me be overlooked, but I say without hesitation that no generation has had such a wealth of opportunity before it and the means to make it real. 6 years out of college and the world has yet to blunt my view of the possible.
    - 16y ago
bbwharris 16y ago
I hate to say it, but if you have been looking for work for a long time and turn down an offer.... You can't complain. There is a saying about beggars and choosers. I completely understand being in a job that I dislike, but a job that I dislike is better than no job and no prospects of a job. A single position can build a resume and open more doors. This was a foolish mistake it seems. I would love to hear about a follow up. Did this guy land the job that he wants?
- roc 16y ago
  "The conversation I’m going to have with my parents now that I’ve turned down this job is more of a concern to me than turning down the job," That's what jumped out at me as the giant, blinking, neon sign. You and I can't turn down an offer and still complain. But a kid with that mindset absolutely will. He has absolutely no perspective. His parents and grandparents have raised him within Plato's Cave.
angstrom 16y ago
Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder. Prima donna. At least he hasn't been doing any 'dead end' work for the last 2 years. However, he can put 2 years of professional job hunting on his resume. I don't think he understands, that 40K job is the bottom of the career ladder. You're not supposed to stay there very long.
- jbail 16y ago
  I completely agree. I graduated college 5 years ago with a Poli sci BA from a state school. My first job was for $11/hr working on MS Pagemaker for the Wisconsin Medicaid website for EDS. Talk about soul sucking! Now, I'm a senior software engineer at a VC-funded software company in Boulder. Needless to say earning a bit more and doing a lot more rewarding work. Between those two places there are about four other jobs and literally thousands of hours reading programming books, working on "play" projects, making websites for my Aunt, Grandma, anyone who would let me, etc. Best advice is to get out there, get any job, stay hungry, intellectually curious and never settle. Then stop worrying.
wfjackson3 16y ago
Political science with a history minor. I feel bad for him, but what did he expect?
- jbail 16y ago
  I have a Political Science degree and I work as a senior software engineer. My Dad has a degree in history, wanted to be a dentist and spent 30 years doing environmental contracting work. People can't really expect to work in exactly the area they get their undergrad degree in, can they? The guy from the article just needs to get real and realize that big boys get up in the morning and go to work whether they like it or not. That's called being an adult.
- robryan 16y ago
  I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.
  - mattm 16y ago
    I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees. I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof.
    - robryan 16y ago
      Or can afford to spend time learning without any financial pressure to actually turn that education into a job.
    - gaius 16y ago
      There is a mantra that I don't know where exactly came from, but my teachers in the 6th form (High School) all repeated it: it doesn't matter what you study as at university you are really learning how to learn. We need to knock that on the head before we make any progress,
wfjackson3 16y ago
Actually, upon looking again, I think that his grandfather has a point. My english teacher my senior year of high school strongly encouraged me to spend a semester biking or backpacking through Europe, taking short term jobs to support myself as I traveled. At the time, I thought she was insane, but that kind of perspective could probably do this guy lots of good.
- wickedshimmy 16y ago
  Any kind of perspective would do this guy lots of good, period.
PonyGumbo 16y ago
He's 24 and his parents are still paying his cell phone bill? Yikes.
- masterj 16y ago
  Is this particular point so terrible? I'm 23 and am still on my parents' plan. The marginal cost of keeping me on their family plan is so much less than the cost of me getting my own line that it makes little sense for me to get my own, even though I could easily afford it.
  - PonyGumbo 16y ago
    In the context of the article, it reinforces the idea that he's spoiled - that while his parents continue to pay all of his bills, he turns down what most of us would consider a more than reasonable starting salary given this economy, his major, and his lack of experience. I would assume that in your case (since you could easily afford your own line), you're at least reimbursing your parents. This guy isn't.
    - mattm 16y ago
      Also mentioned is that his schooling was entirely paid for along with his rent. I imagine that if his parents weren't still subsidizing his life, he wouldn't have had any thought about rejecting that job offer.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
patrickgzill 16y ago
I feel for the guy, though I think he should have considered the $40K job a little more. Sounds like what he really needs to do is get the hell away from his parents who keep making excuses for him and trying to be "understanding".
ahoyhere 16y ago
This is the curse of coming from a well-off family: you can't imagine struggling up. And your mommy probably agrees that you're better than that. Maybe his father disagreed temporarily with his son's rejection of that job, but I bet the message he's been giving his son the other 365 days a year is that he's so gifted, talented, and destined for great things. That said, I'd love to have coffee with his grandfather. Sounds like an interesting guy. There are a million opportunities out there for young people who are willing to work outside of school, on talents or skills or connections - but not for those who expect to get experience handed to them with their grades.
- greyman 16y ago
  It seems to me this is a generational thing. I live in Europe, coming from a not-so-rich family, and my 30 years old sister is exactly like that guy - if the job is so-called boring or "inferior", she would not even consider it...she prefers to keep sending resumes. But on the other hand, I am not willing to criticize him too quickly. I think there is some truth to it - if you settle for the unsuitable job, it might be difficult to move from there. In other words, I am not a strong proponent of the "better any job than no job" mentality. Sometimes it is better to continue searching.
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    I didn't say "rich," I said "well-off." The middle class fear poverty more than the truly rich, in my experience. You can quit a job at any point, and nothing bad happens. That's easy to explain, too. I quit my first real job after 3 months because it was too aggravating, and I got a better offer. Never posed me any problems, and meanwhile I paid off a lot of my debt. People who make excuses will always find some new excuse to make.
jakevoytko 16y ago
I graduated a few years ago, and a common worldview in my graduating class was, "I've put X amount of work in my whole life, so I should hear back from jobs when I apply." It's a flawed line of thought, but it's not common to question things you've been told your whole life. The truth is much more subtle - hard work is important, but working hard towards a goal is what gets you jobs. It wasn't very common to find someone who tried to make industry contacts, or who helped out inside of their department at special events, or who spent large amounts of spare time trying to improve themselves. They just signed up for a whole bunch of classes and worked their ass off in the classroom. Which is good! But it doesn't translate well into job offers The kid in the article lacks the fundamentals for getting a job he wants, but at least he seemed willing to compromise on his lofty ideals and MIGHT accept a lesser job in the future. He should listen to his grandfather! "“Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who can get him to the head of the line.”"
raintrees 16y ago
Single page version: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generat...
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
InclinedPlane 16y ago
This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience. The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and determination paying off over time. Andrew Carnegie's first job earned lower wages than working at McDonald's would today, he became wealthy not because he sat around like a sad sack waiting for his pre-conceived dream job to come to him while he was sitting around in his parent's house, he became wealthy because he sought out opportunities and took advantage of what he could. Like many highly successful people he worked his way through several careers. The American dream isn't about the guy in this article, it's about the guy down the street starting a lawn care business with a rented lawnmower who uses hard work and sound judgment to build it into a landscaping company with its own office and several employees. It's about the other guy who builds an online business in his free time and works days, evenings, and weekends in order to make his dream reality. It's about the opportunity to work your way from nothing up to a comfortable living if you're willing to put in the elbow grease. That dream is as alive as ever, and with the low-overhead of internet based businesses if anything it's seeing a rebirth.
- crux_ 16y ago
  > That dream is as alive as ever While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures. How on earth is that "as alive as ever"? (More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, due specifically to its fixation on "elbow grease" at the expense of the many, many, other factors that play into success.)
  - InclinedPlane 16y ago
    I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management. And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc. Every single person I've seen with drive, a good work-ethic, and sound financial sense has gotten ahead quickly in America, even if they never achieved any education beyond a high school diploma. That doesn't mean they all become millionaires, it just means they achieved financial stability and have significant control over their career path.
xutopia 16y ago
I am not American but French-Canadian. Perhaps my idea of the American dream was skewed by hollywood. I always thought that the American dream was about determination winning over "old money". I thought it was having fewer roadblocks in front of you. I thought it was about having opportunities to prove oneself regardless of wether or not you have a diploma. Am I so disconnected from this kid's worldview that I can't understand why he didn't take up the 40k? I accepted my first job realizing that it wasn't so much about the money I was making as the chance to prove myself out there. Prove myself I did. I doubled my salary within the first 5 years and got more and more interesting jobs as time went by. This guy just has sense of entitlement. He calls it the American dream but either he doesn't know what that means or I don't.
sgoranson 16y ago
hah...I actually went to high school with that kid. My parents went broke sending me to a private school they couldn't afford, so I had the pleasure of growing up with spoiled millionaire future liberal arts majors. Do I take pleasure knowing that today, I forbid my parents from ever picking up a restaurant tab when we go out, and meanwhile his parents are still paying for his cell phone? Yes, yes I do take pleasure :)
aplusbi 16y ago
I think my friend Dan (who is on HN incidentally) summed it up perfectly: "American Dream Elusive for New Generation": get political science degree, apply to finance jobs, reject entry-level positions -> fail.
gojomo 16y ago
These articles emerge like cicadas every few years, especially during temporary economic downturns. The definition of the 'American Dream' is nebulous enough that you can always, for the purpose of the story, define it as what today's kids won't have as easy as their parents.
ac132 16y ago
I think this kid's problem ultimately boils down to one statement: "He majored in political science and minored in history." And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."
dgreensp 16y ago
“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said. This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.
Maven911 16y ago
I think this article has riled up quite a few folks, there's nearly 1500 comments in this nytimes article!!!

50 points by rmundo 16y ago

I was surprised to read this article, as it seemed to me from reading HN and other tech-related news sources that there are more opportunities than ever. Am I wrong?

varjag 16y ago
From the article: he doesn't want to be an entrepreneur or work in small-fish business. He is set for building a traditional career in a finance corporation. A yuppie born into wrong era.
- gaius 16y ago
  Killer quote: "If you talk to 20 people," Scott said, "you’ll find only one in manufacturing and everyone else in finance Umm, no...
  - daok 16y ago
    Well in Canada (Montreal city) they are a lot of student in Mangament/Finance and a lot less in other fields. People think finance is the "only" way to make big easy money now.
    - GFischer 16y ago
      All the talk about the big bonuses in Wall Street during the US crisis sent the wrong signals, I suspect. I daydream about working at a Wall Street bank from what I read here on HN occasionally about the paychecks (currently can't because I'm not an US or EU citizen)
watty 16y ago
I haven't finished the article but I'm guessing his resume isn't stellar or he has no networking. I had no problems finding a job 2 years ago but this may have been to me being a CS major. Everyone I knew and still keep in touch with also found. This includes a few with < 3.0 GPA and many were business majors.
hvs 16y ago
I guess it depends on what you mean by "oppotunities". While the economy is still slow, companies are hiring. However, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that engineering/technology degrees are much more marketable than traditional liberal arts degrees, which can give those of us in the tech-space a bit of a distorted view of the job market. That said, the article chooses to focus on an entitled douchebag.
jasonlotito 16y ago
There are plenty of opportunities out there. Not all of them are equal, but they exist. He had an opportunity, but didn't take it. He'd prefer to sit and wait. If anything, it makes it look like the company is better off without him.
starkfist 16y ago
Yes, you are wrong. If you aren't a computer programmer, there are few jobs, even if you have a degree in something hard, like Physics. If you live somewhere like Arizona, there are few jobs even if you are a computer programmer.

francoisdevlin 16y ago

This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot that deserves what he gets. The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job. It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two potential employees, one who is "waiting for the right position" and another that is "trying to get by", I go with the latter every time. The first guy is definitely out of touch with reality, and the second guy is doing what it takes to get stuff done. I want him working for me.

reader5000 16y ago
Yeah they could have picked a more sympathetic subject.
- bbwharris 16y ago
  I recall another story about a girl who attended NYU and has a mountain of debt and can't find work. At the end of the article it stated her major, and it wasn't something that was marketable in today's economy. Which sounds slightly arrogant. As a reader, I can see the mistakes made. The reality in any economy is that a womens studies graduate from NYU is going to have more difficulty finding work than say an engineering graduate from a state university. If the goals for employment are self-actualization, then be prepared for a hunt in the beginning. If the goals are to earn a paycheck - any paycheck, then there is plenty of work out there. I am afraid that a lot of people in my generation have a very strong sense of entitlement.
  - angstrom 16y ago
    The entitled douche bags may be in the spotlight, but our generation is perfectly prepared. We me be overlooked, but I say without hesitation that no generation has had such a wealth of opportunity before it and the means to make it real. 6 years out of college and the world has yet to blunt my view of the possible.
  - 16y ago

bbwharris 16y ago

I hate to say it, but if you have been looking for work for a long time and turn down an offer.... You can't complain. There is a saying about beggars and choosers. I completely understand being in a job that I dislike, but a job that I dislike is better than no job and no prospects of a job. A single position can build a resume and open more doors. This was a foolish mistake it seems. I would love to hear about a follow up. Did this guy land the job that he wants?

roc 16y ago
"The conversation I’m going to have with my parents now that I’ve turned down this job is more of a concern to me than turning down the job," That's what jumped out at me as the giant, blinking, neon sign. You and I can't turn down an offer and still complain. But a kid with that mindset absolutely will. He has absolutely no perspective. His parents and grandparents have raised him within Plato's Cave.

angstrom 16y ago

Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder. Prima donna. At least he hasn't been doing any 'dead end' work for the last 2 years. However, he can put 2 years of professional job hunting on his resume. I don't think he understands, that 40K job is the bottom of the career ladder. You're not supposed to stay there very long.

jbail 16y ago
I completely agree. I graduated college 5 years ago with a Poli sci BA from a state school. My first job was for $11/hr working on MS Pagemaker for the Wisconsin Medicaid website for EDS. Talk about soul sucking! Now, I'm a senior software engineer at a VC-funded software company in Boulder. Needless to say earning a bit more and doing a lot more rewarding work. Between those two places there are about four other jobs and literally thousands of hours reading programming books, working on "play" projects, making websites for my Aunt, Grandma, anyone who would let me, etc. Best advice is to get out there, get any job, stay hungry, intellectually curious and never settle. Then stop worrying.

wfjackson3 16y ago

Political science with a history minor. I feel bad for him, but what did he expect?

jbail 16y ago
I have a Political Science degree and I work as a senior software engineer. My Dad has a degree in history, wanted to be a dentist and spent 30 years doing environmental contracting work. People can't really expect to work in exactly the area they get their undergrad degree in, can they? The guy from the article just needs to get real and realize that big boys get up in the morning and go to work whether they like it or not. That's called being an adult.
robryan 16y ago
I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.
- mattm 16y ago
  I agree but then universities are businesses. It's in their economic interest for offering these degrees. I still have university students in my social circle and I cringe everytime I meet someone that says they are studying political science or psychology or art or history or women's studies. Many of the degrees universities offer these days are only helpful if you stay within the university system and become a prof.
  - robryan 16y ago
    Or can afford to spend time learning without any financial pressure to actually turn that education into a job.
  - gaius 16y ago
    There is a mantra that I don't know where exactly came from, but my teachers in the 6th form (High School) all repeated it: it doesn't matter what you study as at university you are really learning how to learn. We need to knock that on the head before we make any progress,

wfjackson3 16y ago

Actually, upon looking again, I think that his grandfather has a point. My english teacher my senior year of high school strongly encouraged me to spend a semester biking or backpacking through Europe, taking short term jobs to support myself as I traveled. At the time, I thought she was insane, but that kind of perspective could probably do this guy lots of good.

wickedshimmy 16y ago
Any kind of perspective would do this guy lots of good, period.

PonyGumbo 16y ago

He's 24 and his parents are still paying his cell phone bill? Yikes.

masterj 16y ago
Is this particular point so terrible? I'm 23 and am still on my parents' plan. The marginal cost of keeping me on their family plan is so much less than the cost of me getting my own line that it makes little sense for me to get my own, even though I could easily afford it.
- PonyGumbo 16y ago
  In the context of the article, it reinforces the idea that he's spoiled - that while his parents continue to pay all of his bills, he turns down what most of us would consider a more than reasonable starting salary given this economy, his major, and his lack of experience. I would assume that in your case (since you could easily afford your own line), you're at least reimbursing your parents. This guy isn't.
  - mattm 16y ago
    Also mentioned is that his schooling was entirely paid for along with his rent. I imagine that if his parents weren't still subsidizing his life, he wouldn't have had any thought about rejecting that job offer.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

patrickgzill 16y ago

I feel for the guy, though I think he should have considered the $40K job a little more. Sounds like what he really needs to do is get the hell away from his parents who keep making excuses for him and trying to be "understanding".

ahoyhere 16y ago

This is the curse of coming from a well-off family: you can't imagine struggling up. And your mommy probably agrees that you're better than that. Maybe his father disagreed temporarily with his son's rejection of that job, but I bet the message he's been giving his son the other 365 days a year is that he's so gifted, talented, and destined for great things. That said, I'd love to have coffee with his grandfather. Sounds like an interesting guy. There are a million opportunities out there for young people who are willing to work outside of school, on talents or skills or connections - but not for those who expect to get experience handed to them with their grades.

greyman 16y ago
It seems to me this is a generational thing. I live in Europe, coming from a not-so-rich family, and my 30 years old sister is exactly like that guy - if the job is so-called boring or "inferior", she would not even consider it...she prefers to keep sending resumes. But on the other hand, I am not willing to criticize him too quickly. I think there is some truth to it - if you settle for the unsuitable job, it might be difficult to move from there. In other words, I am not a strong proponent of the "better any job than no job" mentality. Sometimes it is better to continue searching.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  I didn't say "rich," I said "well-off." The middle class fear poverty more than the truly rich, in my experience. You can quit a job at any point, and nothing bad happens. That's easy to explain, too. I quit my first real job after 3 months because it was too aggravating, and I got a better offer. Never posed me any problems, and meanwhile I paid off a lot of my debt. People who make excuses will always find some new excuse to make.

jakevoytko 16y ago

I graduated a few years ago, and a common worldview in my graduating class was, "I've put X amount of work in my whole life, so I should hear back from jobs when I apply." It's a flawed line of thought, but it's not common to question things you've been told your whole life. The truth is much more subtle - hard work is important, but working hard towards a goal is what gets you jobs. It wasn't very common to find someone who tried to make industry contacts, or who helped out inside of their department at special events, or who spent large amounts of spare time trying to improve themselves. They just signed up for a whole bunch of classes and worked their ass off in the classroom. Which is good! But it doesn't translate well into job offers The kid in the article lacks the fundamentals for getting a job he wants, but at least he seemed willing to compromise on his lofty ideals and MIGHT accept a lesser job in the future. He should listen to his grandfather! "“Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who can get him to the head of the line.”"

raintrees 16y ago

Single page version: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generation.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/business/economy/07generat...

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

InclinedPlane 16y ago

This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience. The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and determination paying off over time. Andrew Carnegie's first job earned lower wages than working at McDonald's would today, he became wealthy not because he sat around like a sad sack waiting for his pre-conceived dream job to come to him while he was sitting around in his parent's house, he became wealthy because he sought out opportunities and took advantage of what he could. Like many highly successful people he worked his way through several careers. The American dream isn't about the guy in this article, it's about the guy down the street starting a lawn care business with a rented lawnmower who uses hard work and sound judgment to build it into a landscaping company with its own office and several employees. It's about the other guy who builds an online business in his free time and works days, evenings, and weekends in order to make his dream reality. It's about the opportunity to work your way from nothing up to a comfortable living if you're willing to put in the elbow grease. That dream is as alive as ever, and with the low-overhead of internet based businesses if anything it's seeing a rebirth.

crux_ 16y ago
> That dream is as alive as ever While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures. How on earth is that "as alive as ever"? (More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, due specifically to its fixation on "elbow grease" at the expense of the many, many, other factors that play into success.)
- InclinedPlane 16y ago
  I think that the degree to which younger generations are "doing worse" is due to upbringing and work-ethic far more than it is due to opportunity. Today's younger generations start working later, work less, stay at home longer, spend a lot more time pursuing vanity educations with no economic value, have out of control spending habits, and are generally bad with money management. And even then most "younger generations" live much easier and more wealthy lives than previous generations. They still have cable TV, the internet, cell phones, cars, prepared food, etc, etc, etc. Every single person I've seen with drive, a good work-ethic, and sound financial sense has gotten ahead quickly in America, even if they never achieved any education beyond a high school diploma. That doesn't mean they all become millionaires, it just means they achieved financial stability and have significant control over their career path.

xutopia 16y ago

I am not American but French-Canadian. Perhaps my idea of the American dream was skewed by hollywood. I always thought that the American dream was about determination winning over "old money". I thought it was having fewer roadblocks in front of you. I thought it was about having opportunities to prove oneself regardless of wether or not you have a diploma. Am I so disconnected from this kid's worldview that I can't understand why he didn't take up the 40k? I accepted my first job realizing that it wasn't so much about the money I was making as the chance to prove myself out there. Prove myself I did. I doubled my salary within the first 5 years and got more and more interesting jobs as time went by. This guy just has sense of entitlement. He calls it the American dream but either he doesn't know what that means or I don't.

sgoranson 16y ago

hah...I actually went to high school with that kid. My parents went broke sending me to a private school they couldn't afford, so I had the pleasure of growing up with spoiled millionaire future liberal arts majors. Do I take pleasure knowing that today, I forbid my parents from ever picking up a restaurant tab when we go out, and meanwhile his parents are still paying for his cell phone? Yes, yes I do take pleasure :)

aplusbi 16y ago

I think my friend Dan (who is on HN incidentally) summed it up perfectly: "American Dream Elusive for New Generation": get political science degree, apply to finance jobs, reject entry-level positions -> fail.

gojomo 16y ago

These articles emerge like cicadas every few years, especially during temporary economic downturns. The definition of the 'American Dream' is nebulous enough that you can always, for the purpose of the story, define it as what today's kids won't have as easy as their parents.

ac132 16y ago

I think this kid's problem ultimately boils down to one statement: "He majored in political science and minored in history." And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."

dgreensp 16y ago

“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said. This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.

Maven911 16y ago

I think this article has riled up quite a few folks, there's nearly 1500 comments in this nytimes article!!!