4 ms·

> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassm

by door 9y ago

> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassment

stagbeetle 9y ago
Your comment was one of the points argued in the memo. It's important to understand and prioritize intention or else: >increases [in our] our sensitivity, which is not universally positive: sensitivity increases both our tendency to take offense and our self censorship, leading to authoritarian policies. This means distinguishing between a well-meaning comment and a maleficent or predatory remark.
- door 9y ago
  your intentions don't excuse inappropriate behavior. if you really didn't intend to say something that made someone feel disrespected, your response should be "Oh, I am so sorry, I won't make that kind of comment in the future", not "Well you're wrong for being offended." that kind of response is basically saying "your feelings don't matter, all that matters is what is going on in my head and not what I actually did and how it actually made you feel"
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    Intent is vital in the deliverance and sentencing of criminals (as well as severity). You'll find that the U.S.A's EEOC does not label one-off remarks as sexual harassment.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definit...
    - kemayo 9y ago
      There's a difference between "sexual harassment" and "sexual harassment to a level that's criminal". I think it's reasonable to say that something is simultaneously inappropriate at work and not something you should be arrested for.
      - stagbeetle 9y ago
        Is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of sexual harassment: It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.[0] And is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of harassment in general: Offensive conduct may include, but is not limited to, offensive jokes, slurs, epithets or name calling, physical assaults or threats, intimidation, ridicule or mockery, insults or put-downs, offensive objects or pictures, and interference with work performance.[1] Neither of which make the remark in-question constitute of sexual harassment or harassment in-general. I'm sure there is a proper word that accurately describes unwanted remarks about a person's body, but by calling it sexual harassment you are marginalizing the serious cases of sexual harassment that fit under the legal definition. [0]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm
        kemayo 9y ago
        Mind you, by that definition it's easy to construe it as borderline "unwelcome sexual advances" or "verbal harassment of a sexual nature". That said, I acknowledge it's very situational whether something might be read as unwelcome. Which is why avoiding these things in a professional context seems pretty wise. Anyway, since we're replying here to door's comment... I think they're right regardless of whether we want to call it "sexual harassment". If you offend someone in a way which feels creepy / harassing to them, even assuming that you absolutely meant it in a non-sexual non-flirtatious entirely-platonic matter, your should apologize, maybe clarify your intentions, and say you'll do better in the future. Attempting to argue that you didn't mean it that way so they shouldn't be offended is counterproductive.
        stagbeetle 9y ago
        I agree with you there. If someone unintentionally offends another, an apology, followed up with extras (e.g clarification) where needed, is the correct course of action. My only gripe was with semantics, which have the potential to do more harm than good.
  - marknutter 9y ago
    As a person of grammar, I'm offended by the fact that you don't capitalize the first word in your sentences. It doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior that you may not have intended it.
    - door 9y ago
      i have a college degree i know how sentences are supposed to be capitalized lol
- taysic 9y ago
  Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment. That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all.
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on >Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.
    - jahlove 9y ago
      By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"
      - stagbeetle 9y ago
        I understand that part, but I don't understand how that sentence relates to the second: "That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all." If there's a missing "if" before the "it's" in his first sentence, I can only assume he means it takes effort to restrain oneself from being unfiltered, but there's an uncanny taste of an insult I can't pinpoint.
        kemayo 9y ago
        (I'm not the OP, so I might be misrepresenting taysic's views here.) I think for clarity I'd add a comma: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish, it's not worth it within a work environment. Such that it's read as: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish [whether it's worth it,] it's not worth it within a work environment. The idea is that in a professional environment, part of "being professional" is avoiding those situations where your comments might be read as unwelcome. With a viable rule of thumb being to just err on the side of assuming they'd be unwelcome in any case where you have to think about it.
        9y ago
Veratyr 9y ago
I think the exact wording and context is important here. "Hey Googlette, you look really good in a bathing suit" is a comment about how the woman's body looks in a revealing outfit. I'd say this is generally unprofessional, though in some contexts (perhaps she'd just been expressing a lack of confidence in her body), it could still be appropriate. "Hey Googlette, that bathing suit looks really good on you" is a comment on the particular bathing suit and how the combination works well. It's potentially more of a comment on her good choice and fashion sense than on her body. If the bathing suit is particularly risqué then it might be inappropriate but if it's just a normal bathing suit I don't think it'd be any more inappropriate than "your new haircut looks really good" or "is that a new top? It looks really good".
- door 9y ago
  a good rule of thumb is just to never make any comments about a female coworker's body. it's very easy to cross over to unprofessional territory and make someone feel uncomfortable or degraded. that's the rule I've followed my entire life.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    In what context is it not unprofessional to comment on a coworker's body?! I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
    - Veratyr 9y ago
      First situation that comes to mind is in a conversation where the coworker has raised the subject in conversation: "I've been working out a lot the last few months. I managed to lose a lot of weight and I think I look good." "Yeah, you looks great, that work definitely paid off." The coworker brought it up, which indicates that they're comfortable talking about it and the comment is a celebration of the coworker's achievement rather than any kind of expression of sexual desire. And then of course there are professions where the body is directly relevant to the work, like acting, modelling and sports/atheleticism. All this really depends on context though. In a corporate office where everyone's barely more than strangers, I don't think even the situation above would be appropriate. In a small business where a "coworker" is as much a close friend as a colleague, I think the threshold for what's acceptable is very different.
0xbear 9y ago
I'm sorry, saying to someone "you look good" is not "sexual harassment" no matter how much you want it to be.

by door 9y ago

> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassment

stagbeetle 9y ago

Your comment was one of the points argued in the memo. It's important to understand and prioritize intention or else: >increases [in our] our sensitivity, which is not universally positive: sensitivity increases both our tendency to take offense and our self censorship, leading to authoritarian policies. This means distinguishing between a well-meaning comment and a maleficent or predatory remark.

door 9y ago
your intentions don't excuse inappropriate behavior. if you really didn't intend to say something that made someone feel disrespected, your response should be "Oh, I am so sorry, I won't make that kind of comment in the future", not "Well you're wrong for being offended." that kind of response is basically saying "your feelings don't matter, all that matters is what is going on in my head and not what I actually did and how it actually made you feel"
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  Intent is vital in the deliverance and sentencing of criminals (as well as severity). You'll find that the U.S.A's EEOC does not label one-off remarks as sexual harassment.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definit...
  - kemayo 9y ago
    There's a difference between "sexual harassment" and "sexual harassment to a level that's criminal". I think it's reasonable to say that something is simultaneously inappropriate at work and not something you should be arrested for.
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      Is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of sexual harassment: It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.[0] And is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of harassment in general: Offensive conduct may include, but is not limited to, offensive jokes, slurs, epithets or name calling, physical assaults or threats, intimidation, ridicule or mockery, insults or put-downs, offensive objects or pictures, and interference with work performance.[1] Neither of which make the remark in-question constitute of sexual harassment or harassment in-general. I'm sure there is a proper word that accurately describes unwanted remarks about a person's body, but by calling it sexual harassment you are marginalizing the serious cases of sexual harassment that fit under the legal definition. [0]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm
      - kemayo 9y ago
        Mind you, by that definition it's easy to construe it as borderline "unwelcome sexual advances" or "verbal harassment of a sexual nature". That said, I acknowledge it's very situational whether something might be read as unwelcome. Which is why avoiding these things in a professional context seems pretty wise. Anyway, since we're replying here to door's comment... I think they're right regardless of whether we want to call it "sexual harassment". If you offend someone in a way which feels creepy / harassing to them, even assuming that you absolutely meant it in a non-sexual non-flirtatious entirely-platonic matter, your should apologize, maybe clarify your intentions, and say you'll do better in the future. Attempting to argue that you didn't mean it that way so they shouldn't be offended is counterproductive.
        stagbeetle 9y ago
        I agree with you there. If someone unintentionally offends another, an apology, followed up with extras (e.g clarification) where needed, is the correct course of action. My only gripe was with semantics, which have the potential to do more harm than good.
- marknutter 9y ago
  As a person of grammar, I'm offended by the fact that you don't capitalize the first word in your sentences. It doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior that you may not have intended it.
  - door 9y ago
    i have a college degree i know how sentences are supposed to be capitalized lol
taysic 9y ago
Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment. That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all.
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on >Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.
  - jahlove 9y ago
    By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      I understand that part, but I don't understand how that sentence relates to the second: "That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all." If there's a missing "if" before the "it's" in his first sentence, I can only assume he means it takes effort to restrain oneself from being unfiltered, but there's an uncanny taste of an insult I can't pinpoint.
      - kemayo 9y ago
        (I'm not the OP, so I might be misrepresenting taysic's views here.) I think for clarity I'd add a comma: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish, it's not worth it within a work environment. Such that it's read as: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish [whether it's worth it,] it's not worth it within a work environment. The idea is that in a professional environment, part of "being professional" is avoiding those situations where your comments might be read as unwelcome. With a viable rule of thumb being to just err on the side of assuming they'd be unwelcome in any case where you have to think about it.
        9y ago

Veratyr 9y ago

I think the exact wording and context is important here. "Hey Googlette, you look really good in a bathing suit" is a comment about how the woman's body looks in a revealing outfit. I'd say this is generally unprofessional, though in some contexts (perhaps she'd just been expressing a lack of confidence in her body), it could still be appropriate. "Hey Googlette, that bathing suit looks really good on you" is a comment on the particular bathing suit and how the combination works well. It's potentially more of a comment on her good choice and fashion sense than on her body. If the bathing suit is particularly risqué then it might be inappropriate but if it's just a normal bathing suit I don't think it'd be any more inappropriate than "your new haircut looks really good" or "is that a new top? It looks really good".

door 9y ago
a good rule of thumb is just to never make any comments about a female coworker's body. it's very easy to cross over to unprofessional territory and make someone feel uncomfortable or degraded. that's the rule I've followed my entire life.
- rhizome 9y ago
  In what context is it not unprofessional to comment on a coworker's body?! I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
  - Veratyr 9y ago
    First situation that comes to mind is in a conversation where the coworker has raised the subject in conversation: "I've been working out a lot the last few months. I managed to lose a lot of weight and I think I look good." "Yeah, you looks great, that work definitely paid off." The coworker brought it up, which indicates that they're comfortable talking about it and the comment is a celebration of the coworker's achievement rather than any kind of expression of sexual desire. And then of course there are professions where the body is directly relevant to the work, like acting, modelling and sports/atheleticism. All this really depends on context though. In a corporate office where everyone's barely more than strangers, I don't think even the situation above would be appropriate. In a small business where a "coworker" is as much a close friend as a colleague, I think the threshold for what's acceptable is very different.

0xbear 9y ago

I'm sorry, saying to someone "you look good" is not "sexual harassment" no matter how much you want it to be.