9 ms·

As a former Googler: dude is _so_ getting fired and blacklisted. I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. Not a di

by 0xbear 9y ago

As a former Googler: dude is _so_ getting fired and blacklisted. I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. Not a direct or indirect report, mind you, a person completely outside the chain of command, at a team event in (IIRC) Hawaii. A small minority of people takes victim mentality and makes it near religious internal dogma. The rest just go along with it due to fat paychecks and the lack of desire to get fired for not being PC enough.

door 9y ago
> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassment
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  Your comment was one of the points argued in the memo. It's important to understand and prioritize intention or else: >increases [in our] our sensitivity, which is not universally positive: sensitivity increases both our tendency to take offense and our self censorship, leading to authoritarian policies. This means distinguishing between a well-meaning comment and a maleficent or predatory remark.
  - door 9y ago
    your intentions don't excuse inappropriate behavior. if you really didn't intend to say something that made someone feel disrespected, your response should be "Oh, I am so sorry, I won't make that kind of comment in the future", not "Well you're wrong for being offended." that kind of response is basically saying "your feelings don't matter, all that matters is what is going on in my head and not what I actually did and how it actually made you feel"
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      Intent is vital in the deliverance and sentencing of criminals (as well as severity). You'll find that the U.S.A's EEOC does not label one-off remarks as sexual harassment.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definit...
      - kemayo 9y ago
        There's a difference between "sexual harassment" and "sexual harassment to a level that's criminal". I think it's reasonable to say that something is simultaneously inappropriate at work and not something you should be arrested for.
        stagbeetle 9y ago
        Is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of sexual harassment: It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.[0] And is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of harassment in general: Offensive conduct may include, but is not limited to, offensive jokes, slurs, epithets or name calling, physical assaults or threats, intimidation, ridicule or mockery, insults or put-downs, offensive objects or pictures, and interference with work performance.[1] Neither of which make the remark in-question constitute of sexual harassment or harassment in-general. I'm sure there is a proper word that accurately describes unwanted remarks about a person's body, but by calling it sexual harassment you are marginalizing the serious cases of sexual harassment that fit under the legal definition. [0]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm
        kemayo 9y ago
        Mind you, by that definition it's easy to construe it as borderline "unwelcome sexual advances" or "verbal harassment of a sexual nature". That said, I acknowledge it's very situational whether something might be read as unwelcome. Which is why avoiding these things in a professional context seems pretty wise. Anyway, since we're replying here to door's comment... I think they're right regardless of whether we want to call it "sexual harassment". If you offend someone in a way which feels creepy / harassing to them, even assuming that you absolutely meant it in a non-sexual non-flirtatious entirely-platonic matter, your should apologize, maybe clarify your intentions, and say you'll do better in the future. Attempting to argue that you didn't mean it that way so they shouldn't be offended is counterproductive.
    - marknutter 9y ago
      As a person of grammar, I'm offended by the fact that you don't capitalize the first word in your sentences. It doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior that you may not have intended it.
      - door 9y ago
        i have a college degree i know how sentences are supposed to be capitalized lol
  - taysic 9y ago
    Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment. That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all.
    - stagbeetle 9y ago
      I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on >Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.
      - jahlove 9y ago
        By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"
        stagbeetle 9y ago
        I understand that part, but I don't understand how that sentence relates to the second: "That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all." If there's a missing "if" before the "it's" in his first sentence, I can only assume he means it takes effort to restrain oneself from being unfiltered, but there's an uncanny taste of an insult I can't pinpoint.
        kemayo 9y ago
        (I'm not the OP, so I might be misrepresenting taysic's views here.) I think for clarity I'd add a comma: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish, it's not worth it within a work environment. Such that it's read as: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish [whether it's worth it,] it's not worth it within a work environment. The idea is that in a professional environment, part of "being professional" is avoiding those situations where your comments might be read as unwelcome. With a viable rule of thumb being to just err on the side of assuming they'd be unwelcome in any case where you have to think about it.
        9y ago
- Veratyr 9y ago
  I think the exact wording and context is important here. "Hey Googlette, you look really good in a bathing suit" is a comment about how the woman's body looks in a revealing outfit. I'd say this is generally unprofessional, though in some contexts (perhaps she'd just been expressing a lack of confidence in her body), it could still be appropriate. "Hey Googlette, that bathing suit looks really good on you" is a comment on the particular bathing suit and how the combination works well. It's potentially more of a comment on her good choice and fashion sense than on her body. If the bathing suit is particularly risqué then it might be inappropriate but if it's just a normal bathing suit I don't think it'd be any more inappropriate than "your new haircut looks really good" or "is that a new top? It looks really good".
  - door 9y ago
    a good rule of thumb is just to never make any comments about a female coworker's body. it's very easy to cross over to unprofessional territory and make someone feel uncomfortable or degraded. that's the rule I've followed my entire life.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      In what context is it not unprofessional to comment on a coworker's body?! I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
      - Veratyr 9y ago
        First situation that comes to mind is in a conversation where the coworker has raised the subject in conversation: "I've been working out a lot the last few months. I managed to lose a lot of weight and I think I look good." "Yeah, you looks great, that work definitely paid off." The coworker brought it up, which indicates that they're comfortable talking about it and the comment is a celebration of the coworker's achievement rather than any kind of expression of sexual desire. And then of course there are professions where the body is directly relevant to the work, like acting, modelling and sports/atheleticism. All this really depends on context though. In a corporate office where everyone's barely more than strangers, I don't think even the situation above would be appropriate. In a small business where a "coworker" is as much a close friend as a colleague, I think the threshold for what's acceptable is very different.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  I'm sorry, saying to someone "you look good" is not "sexual harassment" no matter how much you want it to be.
rifung 9y ago
> A small minority of people takes victim mentality and makes it near religious internal dogma. The rest just go along with it due to fat paychecks and the lack of desire to get fired for not being PC enough. As a current Googler I am surprised to hear this. I think most of the people I work with would agree that while it might be normal to think something like that, you should keep it to yourself.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  You say you're surprised, and then confirm my opinion almost to the letter. Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it.
  - rifung 9y ago
    Perhaps I didn't express myself well but I certainly did not intend to confirm your statement. > Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it. I meant people don't talk about it out of respect for their coworkers, not because they are afraid to get fired. I'm sure there are some who are just afraid to get fired, but I sincerely believe they're the minority.
    - 0xbear 9y ago
      Can't tell if you're one of those people who get people fired for differences of opinion or you just honestly don't see it. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. I find it amusing that I only have to concern myself with "respect for my coworkers" if my opinion is different from the liberal side on some cause célèbre. I.e. if I comply with liberal dogma and say that having lower hiring bar (or other kinds of preferential treatment) for women is OK, I can say so publicly without fear of it being a career limiting move, but if I believe the opposite and say so publicly, I'm 100% guaranteed to receive a ping from HR reminding me to STFU and never mention it again.
      - rifung 9y ago
CalChris 9y ago
Fat paychecks are rather nice and I've been fired. If you believe in something, you shouldn't be unwilling to risk that. Also, I'm unaware of any blacklist. Google looks good on the res and there's plenty of jobs out there. Colin Kaepernick believed in something and he's paying the price. If you're expecting me to feel sorry for this cupcake, that ain't gonna happen. I have a sliver of respect for him for writing it and zero respect for what he wrote. I sure don't think I'd want to work with him.
taysic 9y ago
If that were true and significant, it would mean the company would bleed talent and become such an uncomfortable place to work that a competitor would gain advantage. That's why the market works. For the record, I've heard the exact opposite about the google work environment.
nybbler 9y ago
I'm pretty sure that remark isn't why Vic Gundotra was driven out.
the_cyber_pass 9y ago
Aren't blacklists supposed to be illegal in the US?
jee_accnt 9y ago
At this point, firing him would be a huge PR mistake for Google.
- remarkEon 9y ago
  Would it? Imagine the think pieces and clickbait it would generate. The guy would get an interview on Tucker Carlson and the Joe Rogan podcast but the whole thing would be over in 2 weeks.
  - jee_accnt 9y ago
    ok, you were right.

by 0xbear 9y ago

door 9y ago

> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassment

stagbeetle 9y ago
Your comment was one of the points argued in the memo. It's important to understand and prioritize intention or else: >increases [in our] our sensitivity, which is not universally positive: sensitivity increases both our tendency to take offense and our self censorship, leading to authoritarian policies. This means distinguishing between a well-meaning comment and a maleficent or predatory remark.
- door 9y ago
  your intentions don't excuse inappropriate behavior. if you really didn't intend to say something that made someone feel disrespected, your response should be "Oh, I am so sorry, I won't make that kind of comment in the future", not "Well you're wrong for being offended." that kind of response is basically saying "your feelings don't matter, all that matters is what is going on in my head and not what I actually did and how it actually made you feel"
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    Intent is vital in the deliverance and sentencing of criminals (as well as severity). You'll find that the U.S.A's EEOC does not label one-off remarks as sexual harassment.[0] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definit...
    - kemayo 9y ago
      There's a difference between "sexual harassment" and "sexual harassment to a level that's criminal". I think it's reasonable to say that something is simultaneously inappropriate at work and not something you should be arrested for.
      - stagbeetle 9y ago
        Is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of sexual harassment: It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.[0] And is the primary authority's (EEOC) definition of harassment in general: Offensive conduct may include, but is not limited to, offensive jokes, slurs, epithets or name calling, physical assaults or threats, intimidation, ridicule or mockery, insults or put-downs, offensive objects or pictures, and interference with work performance.[1] Neither of which make the remark in-question constitute of sexual harassment or harassment in-general. I'm sure there is a proper word that accurately describes unwanted remarks about a person's body, but by calling it sexual harassment you are marginalizing the serious cases of sexual harassment that fit under the legal definition. [0]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm [1]https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm
        kemayo 9y ago
        Mind you, by that definition it's easy to construe it as borderline "unwelcome sexual advances" or "verbal harassment of a sexual nature". That said, I acknowledge it's very situational whether something might be read as unwelcome. Which is why avoiding these things in a professional context seems pretty wise. Anyway, since we're replying here to door's comment... I think they're right regardless of whether we want to call it "sexual harassment". If you offend someone in a way which feels creepy / harassing to them, even assuming that you absolutely meant it in a non-sexual non-flirtatious entirely-platonic matter, your should apologize, maybe clarify your intentions, and say you'll do better in the future. Attempting to argue that you didn't mean it that way so they shouldn't be offended is counterproductive.
  - marknutter 9y ago
    As a person of grammar, I'm offended by the fact that you don't capitalize the first word in your sentences. It doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior that you may not have intended it.
    - door 9y ago
      i have a college degree i know how sentences are supposed to be capitalized lol
- taysic 9y ago
  Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment. That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all.
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate on >Usually if it takes work to distinguish it's not worth it within a work environment.
    - jahlove 9y ago
      By the overloaded term "work", OP really meant "effort"
      - stagbeetle 9y ago
        I understand that part, but I don't understand how that sentence relates to the second: "That's why professional environments are effective and make a pleasant place to work for all." If there's a missing "if" before the "it's" in his first sentence, I can only assume he means it takes effort to restrain oneself from being unfiltered, but there's an uncanny taste of an insult I can't pinpoint.
        kemayo 9y ago
        (I'm not the OP, so I might be misrepresenting taysic's views here.) I think for clarity I'd add a comma: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish, it's not worth it within a work environment. Such that it's read as: > Usually, if it takes work to distinguish [whether it's worth it,] it's not worth it within a work environment. The idea is that in a professional environment, part of "being professional" is avoiding those situations where your comments might be read as unwelcome. With a viable rule of thumb being to just err on the side of assuming they'd be unwelcome in any case where you have to think about it.
        9y ago
Veratyr 9y ago
I think the exact wording and context is important here. "Hey Googlette, you look really good in a bathing suit" is a comment about how the woman's body looks in a revealing outfit. I'd say this is generally unprofessional, though in some contexts (perhaps she'd just been expressing a lack of confidence in her body), it could still be appropriate. "Hey Googlette, that bathing suit looks really good on you" is a comment on the particular bathing suit and how the combination works well. It's potentially more of a comment on her good choice and fashion sense than on her body. If the bathing suit is particularly risqué then it might be inappropriate but if it's just a normal bathing suit I don't think it'd be any more inappropriate than "your new haircut looks really good" or "is that a new top? It looks really good".
- door 9y ago
  a good rule of thumb is just to never make any comments about a female coworker's body. it's very easy to cross over to unprofessional territory and make someone feel uncomfortable or degraded. that's the rule I've followed my entire life.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    In what context is it not unprofessional to comment on a coworker's body?! I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
    - Veratyr 9y ago
      First situation that comes to mind is in a conversation where the coworker has raised the subject in conversation: "I've been working out a lot the last few months. I managed to lose a lot of weight and I think I look good." "Yeah, you looks great, that work definitely paid off." The coworker brought it up, which indicates that they're comfortable talking about it and the comment is a celebration of the coworker's achievement rather than any kind of expression of sexual desire. And then of course there are professions where the body is directly relevant to the work, like acting, modelling and sports/atheleticism. All this really depends on context though. In a corporate office where everyone's barely more than strangers, I don't think even the situation above would be appropriate. In a small business where a "coworker" is as much a close friend as a colleague, I think the threshold for what's acceptable is very different.
0xbear 9y ago
I'm sorry, saying to someone "you look good" is not "sexual harassment" no matter how much you want it to be.

rifung 9y ago

> A small minority of people takes victim mentality and makes it near religious internal dogma. The rest just go along with it due to fat paychecks and the lack of desire to get fired for not being PC enough. As a current Googler I am surprised to hear this. I think most of the people I work with would agree that while it might be normal to think something like that, you should keep it to yourself.

0xbear 9y ago
You say you're surprised, and then confirm my opinion almost to the letter. Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it.
- rifung 9y ago
  Perhaps I didn't express myself well but I certainly did not intend to confirm your statement. > Truth is, it's dangerous to not "keep it to yourself", so people don't talk about it. I meant people don't talk about it out of respect for their coworkers, not because they are afraid to get fired. I'm sure there are some who are just afraid to get fired, but I sincerely believe they're the minority.
  - 0xbear 9y ago
    Can't tell if you're one of those people who get people fired for differences of opinion or you just honestly don't see it. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. I find it amusing that I only have to concern myself with "respect for my coworkers" if my opinion is different from the liberal side on some cause célèbre. I.e. if I comply with liberal dogma and say that having lower hiring bar (or other kinds of preferential treatment) for women is OK, I can say so publicly without fear of it being a career limiting move, but if I believe the opposite and say so publicly, I'm 100% guaranteed to receive a ping from HR reminding me to STFU and never mention it again.
    - rifung 9y ago

CalChris 9y ago

Fat paychecks are rather nice and I've been fired. If you believe in something, you shouldn't be unwilling to risk that. Also, I'm unaware of any blacklist. Google looks good on the res and there's plenty of jobs out there. Colin Kaepernick believed in something and he's paying the price. If you're expecting me to feel sorry for this cupcake, that ain't gonna happen. I have a sliver of respect for him for writing it and zero respect for what he wrote. I sure don't think I'd want to work with him.

taysic 9y ago

If that were true and significant, it would mean the company would bleed talent and become such an uncomfortable place to work that a competitor would gain advantage. That's why the market works. For the record, I've heard the exact opposite about the google work environment.

nybbler 9y ago

I'm pretty sure that remark isn't why Vic Gundotra was driven out.

the_cyber_pass 9y ago

Aren't blacklists supposed to be illegal in the US?

jee_accnt 9y ago

At this point, firing him would be a huge PR mistake for Google.

remarkEon 9y ago
Would it? Imagine the think pieces and clickbait it would generate. The guy would get an interview on Tucker Carlson and the Joe Rogan podcast but the whole thing would be over in 2 weeks.
- jee_accnt 9y ago
  ok, you were right.