10 ms·

I don't see what's micro about losing your job for wrongthink.

by amiga-workbench 9y ago

skywhopper 9y ago
Who has lost their job for wrongthink?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- defen 9y ago
  Nobel Prize winner James Watson Nobel Prize winner Tim Hunt Harvard President Lawrence Summers are the three that immediately come to mind.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Brendan Eich.
  - door 9y ago
    are you really going to defend the vile shit james watson says as part of 'academic freedom' or whatever
  - HarryHirsch 9y ago
    I've heard from several people who knew James Watson personally that he was completely off his rocker. He lost his position because he was a total embarrassment, this wasn't the PC police at work. No opinion about the other names.
    - defen 9y ago
      I believe it, although that makes me think they should have found a more dignified way to retire him than turn him into a pariah.
  - DalaiObama 9y ago
    When extremely powerful people like that lose their jobs, everyone else gets the message.
    - throwaway12124 9y ago
      Well, they get a message anyway. And then they have the opportunity to decide how they will react. And perhaps that outcome will be far different from what the ostracizors had hoped.
    - Spivak 9y ago
      What message? That you either think what the majority tells you to think, or they'll ruin you? Not exactly winning hearts and minds.
  - chocolateboy 9y ago
    Several more are listed here: https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/bullied-and-badgered-pressured-and-purged/ https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/bullied-and-bad...
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    Summers lost his job as university president because he alienated a significant portion of the faculty by making dramatic political decisions without buy-in from the rest of the community. (Firing popular administrative staff, diverting budget from long-running projects with internal political support, getting in aggressive fights with influential faculty members, etc.) Overall he made for a divisive and relatively ineffective leader of the university. His poorly considered sex differences comments were just a convenient excuse to put someone more politically savvy and charismatic in as a leader. Additionally, it’s hard to feel bad for him as the way he “lost his job” was by being offered an extraordinarily prestigious named professorship (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_Professor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_Professor), giving him the ability to work on pretty much whatever he wants for the rest of his life, with a great salary, benefits, etc., and with few required duties.
    - defen 9y ago
      Do you think he would not have been fired for his comments if he had been popular / well-regarded in his role as president? What does it mean that you can basically be terrible at your job but not get fired until you express a minor deviation from orthodox thought?
      - jacobolus 9y ago
        Yes, that is correct. I don’t think the same comments would have gotten him removed as president if he hadn’t already otherwise lost political support from many in the faculty. Obviously even a widely supported and popular university president making such tactless comments would have still created a public firestorm, but I don’t think it would have been an insurmountable problem. I think he would have been removed (or removed himself) as university president sooner or later regardless given his other political blunders, but it might have taken a few years longer. As I mentioned, the comments about sex differences provided a convenient excuse and rallying point for his critics. I wouldn’t say he was “terrible” at his job. Naïve, undiplomatic, and bull-headed, with good intentions but without enough political skill to persuade his opponents to follow him or enough empathy to understand their objections and moderate his positions. Disclaimer: I was a first year undergraduate at the time, and my understanding comes from talking to various people at Harvard during and after the controversy, including both critics and supporters of Summers. I wasn’t well enough connected to be the ideal first-hand source about this topic.
- TRUMPISYOURPREZ 9y ago
  me
- rocky1138 9y ago
  There was also that scientist involved in the Mars landings that wore an anime shirt.
  - sobani 9y ago
    I only know of the case of a Matt Taylor, who was part of the Rosetta project (land a probe on a comet) that was branded a sexist for wearing a shirt given to him by a woman.
    - rocky1138 9y ago
      Yes! You're right. We are speaking about the same person. My mistake.
- gspetr 9y ago
  PyCon 2013 joke incident might also qualify. Everyone lost there - both the accuser and the accused lost their jobs.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
humanrebar 9y ago
...or being officially stereotyped (privileged, overrepresented). Or being explicitly excluded (mentioned several times in the article).
rifung 9y ago
> I don't see what's micro about losing your job for wrongthink. I admit this is my first time hearing the term "wrongthink" but I assume this means something along the lines of "thinking the wrong thing". If that's true, then nobody loses their job for wrongthink. What they lose it for is actually acting on it, which i guess you could call wrongdoing. Take for example, sexual harassment. It's okay to find your coworker sexually attractive, and also okay to think about them in a sexual manner, but to openly say something without regard for whether it would make them uncomfortable is not okay.
- PerfFriedBread 9y ago
  Read 1984
- amiga-workbench 9y ago
  Wrongthink is a play on some of the Newspeak terms in George Orwell's 1984, it roughly equates to a thoughtcrime. Sexual harassment, discrimination, racism and personal attacks absolutely do not belong in the workplace. The usual advice is to keep politics out of the workplace, but "progressive" ideals are often the default with nobody batting an eyelid. You run the risk of being marked as a non culture fit if you ever voice opposition to or question "progressive" talking points or assertions. I'm not even talking about actionable slights against other staff here, just a difference of opinion which people seem to interpret as a personal attack. An example would be somebodies thoughts on affirmative action or other methodologies to try and create a more "diverse" environment. Regardless of your intentions, I still see it as a kind of discrimination. I dread to think how uncomfortable I would be knowing that I was a diversity hire, and some arbitrary box I fit in was the reason for my hiring rather than my skills and experience. Its why I have kept it quiet at work that I'm gay, I don't want people walking on eggshells around me, thinking I'm going to flip out at some perceived slight. I personally also see the diversity-friendly hiring practises as a bit of a bodge, if you believe that under-representation of certain groups is not the correct, natural equilibrium of how things should be, wouldn't it make more sense to try and fix it at the root cause, during peoples social development and education? I understand the value of role models but it seems like there are probably more direct factors at play. As a child I can't think of anything that would make you more of a social paraih than an interest that is considered "nerdy", from my experience boys get it a bit easier with such interests and attract a bit less derision. Girls seem to be even less understanding when it comes to that kind of interest, especially from other girls. I can very easily see how that kind of social feedback would make you think twice about pursuing certain interests. I didn't really have that many friends growing up, and largely didn't give a shit about what other people thought of me, so I pursued whatever I found interesting and useful. Sorry if this comment is a bit scatterbrained, its a bit difficult for me to collect my thoughts on the subject, there is a lot to talk about and I feel the need to try and justify my views before I get pecked apart for being a bigot.
rhizome 9y ago
Do you believe in the term, "culture fit?" How Google responds to this describes theirs. If you say that "it's different," or, "it depends on the department," then that's just a difference of degree, not of kind.
- amiga-workbench 9y ago
  Not personally, no. But the majority of workplaces do, and one has to act in accordance with that and self censor. I'm more interested in outcomes rather than the way somebody works and thinks.

I don't see what's micro about losing your job for wrongthink.

skywhopper 9y ago

Who has lost their job for wrongthink?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
defen 9y ago
Nobel Prize winner James Watson Nobel Prize winner Tim Hunt Harvard President Lawrence Summers are the three that immediately come to mind.
- throwanem 9y ago
  Brendan Eich.
- door 9y ago
  are you really going to defend the vile shit james watson says as part of 'academic freedom' or whatever
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  I've heard from several people who knew James Watson personally that he was completely off his rocker. He lost his position because he was a total embarrassment, this wasn't the PC police at work. No opinion about the other names.
  - defen 9y ago
    I believe it, although that makes me think they should have found a more dignified way to retire him than turn him into a pariah.
- DalaiObama 9y ago
  When extremely powerful people like that lose their jobs, everyone else gets the message.
  - throwaway12124 9y ago
    Well, they get a message anyway. And then they have the opportunity to decide how they will react. And perhaps that outcome will be far different from what the ostracizors had hoped.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    What message? That you either think what the majority tells you to think, or they'll ruin you? Not exactly winning hearts and minds.
- chocolateboy 9y ago
  Several more are listed here: https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/bullied-and-badgered-pressured-and-purged/ https://handleshaus.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/bullied-and-bad...
- jacobolus 9y ago
  Summers lost his job as university president because he alienated a significant portion of the faculty by making dramatic political decisions without buy-in from the rest of the community. (Firing popular administrative staff, diverting budget from long-running projects with internal political support, getting in aggressive fights with influential faculty members, etc.) Overall he made for a divisive and relatively ineffective leader of the university. His poorly considered sex differences comments were just a convenient excuse to put someone more politically savvy and charismatic in as a leader. Additionally, it’s hard to feel bad for him as the way he “lost his job” was by being offered an extraordinarily prestigious named professorship (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_Professor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_Professor), giving him the ability to work on pretty much whatever he wants for the rest of his life, with a great salary, benefits, etc., and with few required duties.
  - defen 9y ago
    Do you think he would not have been fired for his comments if he had been popular / well-regarded in his role as president? What does it mean that you can basically be terrible at your job but not get fired until you express a minor deviation from orthodox thought?
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Yes, that is correct. I don’t think the same comments would have gotten him removed as president if he hadn’t already otherwise lost political support from many in the faculty. Obviously even a widely supported and popular university president making such tactless comments would have still created a public firestorm, but I don’t think it would have been an insurmountable problem. I think he would have been removed (or removed himself) as university president sooner or later regardless given his other political blunders, but it might have taken a few years longer. As I mentioned, the comments about sex differences provided a convenient excuse and rallying point for his critics. I wouldn’t say he was “terrible” at his job. Naïve, undiplomatic, and bull-headed, with good intentions but without enough political skill to persuade his opponents to follow him or enough empathy to understand their objections and moderate his positions. Disclaimer: I was a first year undergraduate at the time, and my understanding comes from talking to various people at Harvard during and after the controversy, including both critics and supporters of Summers. I wasn’t well enough connected to be the ideal first-hand source about this topic.
TRUMPISYOURPREZ 9y ago
me
rocky1138 9y ago
There was also that scientist involved in the Mars landings that wore an anime shirt.
- sobani 9y ago
  I only know of the case of a Matt Taylor, who was part of the Rosetta project (land a probe on a comet) that was branded a sexist for wearing a shirt given to him by a woman.
  - rocky1138 9y ago
    Yes! You're right. We are speaking about the same person. My mistake.
gspetr 9y ago
PyCon 2013 joke incident might also qualify. Everyone lost there - both the accuser and the accused lost their jobs.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

humanrebar 9y ago

...or being officially stereotyped (privileged, overrepresented). Or being explicitly excluded (mentioned several times in the article).

rifung 9y ago

> I don't see what's micro about losing your job for wrongthink. I admit this is my first time hearing the term "wrongthink" but I assume this means something along the lines of "thinking the wrong thing". If that's true, then nobody loses their job for wrongthink. What they lose it for is actually acting on it, which i guess you could call wrongdoing. Take for example, sexual harassment. It's okay to find your coworker sexually attractive, and also okay to think about them in a sexual manner, but to openly say something without regard for whether it would make them uncomfortable is not okay.

PerfFriedBread 9y ago
Read 1984
amiga-workbench 9y ago
Wrongthink is a play on some of the Newspeak terms in George Orwell's 1984, it roughly equates to a thoughtcrime. Sexual harassment, discrimination, racism and personal attacks absolutely do not belong in the workplace. The usual advice is to keep politics out of the workplace, but "progressive" ideals are often the default with nobody batting an eyelid. You run the risk of being marked as a non culture fit if you ever voice opposition to or question "progressive" talking points or assertions. I'm not even talking about actionable slights against other staff here, just a difference of opinion which people seem to interpret as a personal attack. An example would be somebodies thoughts on affirmative action or other methodologies to try and create a more "diverse" environment. Regardless of your intentions, I still see it as a kind of discrimination. I dread to think how uncomfortable I would be knowing that I was a diversity hire, and some arbitrary box I fit in was the reason for my hiring rather than my skills and experience. Its why I have kept it quiet at work that I'm gay, I don't want people walking on eggshells around me, thinking I'm going to flip out at some perceived slight. I personally also see the diversity-friendly hiring practises as a bit of a bodge, if you believe that under-representation of certain groups is not the correct, natural equilibrium of how things should be, wouldn't it make more sense to try and fix it at the root cause, during peoples social development and education? I understand the value of role models but it seems like there are probably more direct factors at play. As a child I can't think of anything that would make you more of a social paraih than an interest that is considered "nerdy", from my experience boys get it a bit easier with such interests and attract a bit less derision. Girls seem to be even less understanding when it comes to that kind of interest, especially from other girls. I can very easily see how that kind of social feedback would make you think twice about pursuing certain interests. I didn't really have that many friends growing up, and largely didn't give a shit about what other people thought of me, so I pursued whatever I found interesting and useful. Sorry if this comment is a bit scatterbrained, its a bit difficult for me to collect my thoughts on the subject, there is a lot to talk about and I feel the need to try and justify my views before I get pecked apart for being a bigot.

rhizome 9y ago

Do you believe in the term, "culture fit?" How Google responds to this describes theirs. If you say that "it's different," or, "it depends on the department," then that's just a difference of degree, not of kind.

amiga-workbench 9y ago
Not personally, no. But the majority of workplaces do, and one has to act in accordance with that and self censor. I'm more interested in outcomes rather than the way somebody works and thinks.